I Have A Confession....

[shonajoy]

I'd love to see more unbiased avvounts too, the point I was making is th assumption that people who do not BARF feed, do so because they haven't read enough, which is the way your initial comment cam across. I'd nevr dream of saying to a parent *I used to think like you too, but then I saw the light* idea.

Shona, I'm sorry, I did not realise my comments could be taken that way   I was only explaining what changed MY mind; I was not suggesting that you had not read up about it or that if you did you would feel the same way - that would be so arrogant and I'm really sorry if I sounded like that    

There is a theme of *fundamentalism* running through a lot of raw feeding references that I have read.....I hope I have managed to maintain a scientific scrutiny of the evidence - I certainly seem to being using Google Scholar daily to find journal references and research papers on all aspects of canine nutrition    It is one of those subjects that taps into some primative passion though; a couple of doggie people have asked how the new diet is going and I find myself still talking about it after 5 minutes, when they were only expecting a "fine, thanks"    

I agree with you about playing with sticks - I'm totally paranoid; but I have never seen a raw bone spinter in the same way.....  I gave Molo a roast knuckle once when he was pup, and that splintered into really sharp shards, but none of the raw bones I have evner given Molo have broken in this way; maybe we're lucky ??

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Och I'm osrry too - it's a bit of a hot button for me. It takes me back to the breat/bottle debates I used to have on another board!

[clairep4]

I am continually searching for negative things on the Britbarf website, basically because as I've said I'm a right little worrywort when it comes to Bella and bones so find me a scare story and I'll stop giving that kind of bone     . All I've been able to find is some people who don't feed chicken wings unless to a very small dog (I've actually decided as of today to follow suit because Bella is a guzzler so I'm now sticking chicken quarters through the blender, not a pleasant job!), because they can potentially be choking hazards, and some people who have found certain bones (eg lamb ribs) to be a bit splintery (likewise I don't feed them).

My dog walker had a bad experience with a lamb bone where his dog got a splinter that did a fair bit of damage to its insides, but I do not know what kind of lamb bone it was (leg, rib, neck etc) as I didn't think to ask as it was before I was giving raw bones to Bella.  

I think the Britbarf group is good for people who wish to feed raw diets to be able to get some kind of slightly balanced view at least in terms of what to actually feed on a raw diet. You find out as you get into these things that even within raw feeding there are various schools of thought - BARF is one, then there's one (can't remember the name) about only feeding your dog the types of animal it could naturally catch (guess that wouldn't be squirrels in Bella's case as she waits for them to get up the tree before chasing   ), there are some who believe dogs should have veg, some who say they shouldn't. It is, to be honest (IMO) a bit of a minefield, there's alot of conflicting information. I think in some ways that probably adds to the whole evangelical slant there can be, because if you're feeding raw you need to have done a fair bit of research into canine nutrition (at least if you want to get it right) and any book on raw feeding will wax lyrical about how fantastic it is and how "wrong" kibble is. There is no balanced argument.

To my mind, I'm sure people like Burns have done alot of good research and produce a very good quality kibble that does have really good results for alot of dogs being fed on it. In the end I think alot of people are forced into one camp or the other and then vehemently defend whichever side they are on - raw feeders can come up with scare stories about kibble and kidney damage and tooth decay or whatever, kibble feeders can come up with scare stories about raw bones, salmonella etc etc.

At the end of the day what we really need is for vets and canine nutritionists to be a bit more open about the pros and cons of both kinds of diets - I suspect there's as much chance of that happening as there is of Bella deciding those squirrels are really, really boring.  

[shonajoy]

Absolutely. There's a lady who works for our RSPCA who comes into the vets and sh's done a huge survey on foods and qualities - it was intersting because evrything she said, I'd heard about from reading all the bumf, like animal testing (read on here and on web) to whom owns most of certain well known quality kibble companies.

I have to say my reaction may well be knee jerk, but I do feel that it's not something I'd be comfortabl promoting or lauding, especially on such a personal topic. It scares me, that's why I won't do it, but it worries me I suppose that people will feed raw without reading what types of bones to give, or cook them, or whatever, and then a dog will be injured or hurt.

There are lots of dogs who do thrive on BARF, but I'nm sure there are also dogs who have the potential to be injured too - if Hamish had been few raw with his bleeding disorder for example.

I think at the end of the day it's got to be a decision based on your own research - that's why I have a knee jerk reaction to it maybe, but sometimes I fel that those who do choose not to, are being considered not as good owners as those who do, without taking into account they may well just have read all the bumf and then decided. I know I can be a stubborn git, I was the only on out of everyone I knew to avoid the Atkins diet.

[shonajoy]

Personally - I have no negative experiences.

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Rachel's post illustrates my experience quite well. She was asked if Molo was still finding it painful to poo, which hadn't been discussd in this thread, obviously in a PM or off board.

I'm sure there are negatives to it, but they may not be discussed.

[Cob-Web]

I was the only on out of everyone I knew to avoid the Atkins diet.

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Now, theres something we do agree on, Shona    

[Cob-Web]

Personally - I have no negative experiences.

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Rachel's post illustrates my experience quite well. She was asked if Molo was still finding it painful to poo, which hadn't been discussd in this thread, obviously in a PM or off board.

I'm sure there are negatives to it, but they may not be discussed.

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Oh, I did - in a thread called "Raw Bones" - here I would never try and "cover up" any negatives - I really have gone into this with an open mind; and still have a whole bag of Burns to use "in case" it doesn't work out

[shonajoy]

Personally - I have no negative experiences.

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Rachel's post illustrates my experience quite well. She was asked if Molo was still finding it painful to poo, which hadn't been discussd in this thread, obviously in a PM or off board.

I'm sure there are negatives to it, but they may not be discussed.

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Oh, I did - in a thread called "Raw Bones" - here I would never try and "cover up" any negatives - I really have gone into this with an open mind; and still have a whole bag of Burns to use "in case" it doesn't work out

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You did, I apologise.

[clairep4]

Personally - I have no negative experiences.

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Rachel's post illustrates my experience quite well. She was asked if Molo was still finding it painful to poo, which hadn't been discussd in this thread, obviously in a PM or off board.

I'm sure there are negatives to it, but they may not be discussed.

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I'd agree with you there - Bella's been sick a few times so that's one negative thing (then again on kibble she used to fairly often throw up bile in the mornings and no longer does this) but I'm learning as I go along that it's about just finding the correct foods for her - I now know that she is a guzzler and will be sick if she eats a whole chicken wing or rabbit leg, but will be fine if these are minced; bones with too much fat give her the squits, etc etc. I think for me I don't necessarily think of the times she's been sick as negatives, more as a learning experience from which I find out what does/doesn't suit her as an individual.

I never thought I'd feed Bella raw food, in the end it has just turned out that way.  

[Penel]

Barley threw up a chicken wing last night but that's not a negative thing, its normal - he's a dog - he ate it too fast, without chewing - so he threw it up, chewed it up,and ate it again - it really does not worry me.  
As for pooing being painful - that is because Molo had full anal glands, I would predict (and I know Rachel will keep us updated   ) that this won't happen again, as they will get naturally emptied more regularly now.
There is someone on the Britbarf group with a Von Willebrands dog (another bleeding disorder) - she just grinds all its bones - he doesn't eat them whole.

I know raw feeding doesn't suit everyone, and you do have to do a heck of a lot of reading and research to be comfortable to do it - at least I know I did, and I had a lot of support from the Chairman of the BAHVS, Chris Day, who was Saffy's homeopathic vet - he has been raw feeding for about 40 years now.  Lola's current homeopathic vet Mark Elliott told me something interesting - his previous practice - stopped selling "dog foods" - and promoted raw feeding, and stopped annual vaccinations.... their clientele doubled, and their income halved.

[PennyB]

As for pooing being painful - that is because Molo had full anal glands, I would predict (and I know Rachel will keep us updated  ) that this won't happen again, as they will get naturally emptied more regularly now.

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With mine they get a little constipated as well when I feed the little raw I do (easily solved I know but it does happen).

[clairep4]

There's a 3 page article on raw feeding in Your Dog this month - haven't read it yet but apparently it is written from a positive point of view so I'll be interested to see what people think.

[shonajoy]

Barley threw up a chicken wing last night but that's not a negative thing, its normal - he's a dog - he ate it too fast, without chewing - so he threw it up, chewed it up,and ate it again - it really does not worry me. 
As for pooing being painful - that is because Molo had full anal glands, I would predict (and I know Rachel will keep us updated  ) that this won't happen again, as they will get naturally emptied more regularly now.
There is someone on the Britbarf group with a Von Willebrands dog (another bleeding disorder) - she just grinds all its bones - he doesn't eat them whole.

I know raw feeding doesn't suit everyone, and you do have to do a heck of a lot of reading and research to be comfortable to do it - at least I know I did, and I had a lot of support from the Chairman of the BAHVS, Chris Day, who was Saffy's homeopathic vet - he has been raw feeding for about 40 years now.  Lola's current homeopathic vet Mark Elliott told me something interesting - his previous practice - stopped selling "dog foods" - and promoted raw feeding, and stopped annual vaccinations.... their clientele doubled, and their income halved.

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What is the benefit of grinding bones, just calcium, or anal glands? Bran would have the same effect, no?

We as a practice are stopping giving out puppy packs, and will be giving out natural foods hopefully, and I've been at the forefront of that. Certain dog foods advertising works vry well, especially the naming of it, and customers believ it, so it's slow to start. We'll get there though. We do sell prescription foods for specific conditions, but we don't push them, and we don't sell food in the window for instance.

I'm not sure if income halving is a good thing - I know for a fact our vets (not the partners of which there are three, just your standard vet) are badly paid, some of them are struggling financially five years after graduating, I was gobsmacked when I found out what they were on! At the end of the day, it's a business like anything else, but hopefully we can promote a trend for more natural foods, I'm sure that will be a great start.

The young vets especially are great - tonight one of thm was telling a clint not to bother with special diets for flaky skin, just change to Burns, and try EPO - they really don't like hard selling which is good.

[Penel]

Obviously their income halved because their "clients" were healthier as a result of their advice - surely that has to be a good thing ?  
Mark has told me that he often sees a new client only once - and that the main part of his "prescription" is a change of diet, to a raw diet - and really often that solves the problem.  How many homeopathic vets have you asked about raw diets Shona, or have they all been "conventional" vets ?

[winewood]

Hi    I've put my 2 cents worth in about feeding barf before, have fed Indi raw food since we got her and my previous dogs, so I've been feeding raw for about 13 years. Never had a problem apart from making feed time like feeding time at the zoo Airedales  can eat a whole carcus in the same time a cocker can eat a wing. Once you get into the routine i'ts easy, I've read books, looked on different sites read everything I could get my hands on, done a short course on Natural therapies for companion pets(which was very interesting).  I added  garlic, apple cider vinegar, feed eggs,vegimite (for vit she loves her slice of toast for breakfast with her chicken wing. I think if you buy a good qualitiy dry food you should only need a small handful each day this should cover everything not in meat and veg though she does still get her tin of sardines each week. For what it its worth I think the problems come when people overfeed on one thing eg all and only dry food or all an only tin food I don't believe this really covers all the dogs needs. I think of it this way, take away food is fine once a week, if we ate McDonalds or Pizza everynight we would have health problems same for them fast and easy for us not good for them. This is just my unqualified  opinon just using a common sense approach and each dog is different my last girl had a allergy to red meat so she never had beef only chicken/lamb and roo was also fine. We can buy barf patties here which is all worked out for you. Its not as cheap as doing it yourself but I find it very easy to start puppies on this then move to chunks of meat and chicken wings as they get older,  by six months they are eating lots of different raw bones and meat.

[shonajoy]

Obviously their income halved because their "clients" were healthier as a result of their advice - surely that has to be a good thing ? 
Mark has told me that he often sees a new client only once - and that the main part of his "prescription" is a change of diet, to a raw diet - and really often that solves the problem.  How many homeopathic vets have you asked about raw diets Shona, or have they all been "conventional" vets ?

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I  have spoken to only one homeopathic vet - we don't sem to have many up here, near us.I have to say, I'm not a homeopathy fan. Some bits are valid, but I think they should be used under supervision by a qualified vet/doctor. Also, it doesn't work with the big things.

Of course it's good the clients are healthier - the point we don't agree on is the fact it takes a diet containing bones to make them that way Also, I don't think a diet of factory chicken bones will be any better than a lot of kibbles/good quality dog food.