Author Topic: barf debate  (Read 30067 times)

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Penel

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Re: barf debate
« Reply #60 on: June 04, 2006, 11:52:41 PM »
I am sure you are more than capable of researching it yourself kb .....  I've got to go to bed now !!!

Offline kb

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Re: barf debate
« Reply #61 on: June 04, 2006, 11:54:38 PM »
No one is blaming dogs alone for the spread of these diseases - I am simply saying it is a genuine risk which probably not going to bother those of us who are healthy  - but it is a serious risk to those who are not - including young children. Not feeding my dog raw meat is something I see to be a reasonable precaution for me.

Bluegirl - tell us how the benefits for your family outweigh the risks and then I can understand. That is what I am trying to achieve.

Offline Mich

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Re: barf debate
« Reply #62 on: June 04, 2006, 11:57:44 PM »
No one is blaming dogs alone for the spread of these diseases - I am simply saying it is a genuine risk which probably not going to bother those of us who are healthy  - but it is a serious risk to those who are not - including young children. Not feeding my dog raw meat is something I see to be a reasonable precaution for me.

Bluegirl - tell us how the benefits for your family outweigh the risks and then I can understand. That is what I am trying to achieve.

This makes no sense,  If you are thinking along these lines then surely the risk of having a dog in the first place is far greater than the increased risk of feeling barf.
  Mich, Bailey and Poppy xxxxx

Offline kb

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Re: barf debate
« Reply #63 on: June 04, 2006, 11:58:15 PM »
That sounds like a bit of a cop out to me Penel. It is all very well to give criticism to the arguments you do not like, but you won't put forward anything to support your critcisms. You see I have looked for the clinical evidence re the benefits - I have not found any yet - I thought you might be able to help! (nor have I found conclusive clinical evidence against, I must add).

Offline kb

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Re: barf debate
« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2006, 12:11:11 AM »
I am having difficulty in understanding why people cannot see the risk of feeding your dog raw meat when the dog then carries of therisk of getting a serious infection itself and also of shedding these live pathogens in their faeces. These pathogens are not normally passed in faeces but result from the dog having ingested them. We are told to handle meat in a certain way, ensure it is thoroughly cooked etc to eliminate the risk - that is why raw meat carries an element of risk. It is not the dog - most pathogens that live in dogs do not affect humans, but those causing food poisoning do.

This is an increased risk for children because they do not deal with these pathogens as effectively (we have all heard the stories about the nurseries and the e-coli scares), and also because they are much more likely to be in contact with dog faeces than adults or dogs mouths or toys or feeding dishes. Not feeding raw meat reduces the risk/ How many of us would actually consider feeding raw meat to children.

Look I think this is getting a bit silly also - I believe it to be a genuine risk. This is not just my opinion but the considered opinion of many vets and environmental health experts. We can argue until we are blue in the face - but there it is. It comes down on how big a risk you judge it to be. I judge it to be an unnecssary risk when I have 2 small children in the house. None of this takes into account the risk to the dog - which may be minimal, but still exists. Nobody can predict which meat or animal will be affected.

Offline Mich

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Re: barf debate
« Reply #65 on: June 05, 2006, 12:18:19 AM »
I am having difficulty in understanding why people cannot see the risk of feeding your dog raw meat when the dog then carries of therisk of getting a serious infection itself and also of shedding these live pathogens in their faeces.

Dogs can and will pick these pathogens up from any number of places not just raw meat. So the risk is there whether you feed Barf or not.
  Mich, Bailey and Poppy xxxxx

Offline Mich

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Re: barf debate
« Reply #66 on: June 05, 2006, 12:20:19 AM »
This is an increased risk for children because they do not deal with these pathogens as effectively (we have all heard the stories about the nurseries and the e-coli scares), and also because they are much more likely to be in contact with dog faeces than adults or dogs mouths or toys or feeding dishes. Not feeding raw meat reduces the risk/ How many of us would actually consider feeding raw meat to children.


How does not feeding raw meat reduce the risk?
  Mich, Bailey and Poppy xxxxx

Offline Mich

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Re: barf debate
« Reply #67 on: June 05, 2006, 12:21:36 AM »
Nobody can predict which meat or animal will be affected.

Exactly, regardless of the feed being given.
  Mich, Bailey and Poppy xxxxx

Offline maximus

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Re: barf debate
« Reply #68 on: June 05, 2006, 12:25:17 AM »
  :shades: i've been watching this argument, we feed max raw meatand have two small children, we always pick up poo straight away, disinfect bowls floor etc, my children never get sick , i think they are probably more exposed to these infections when we are at the local park, not all dog owers clean up after theyre dogs, just the other day my little boy trod in another dogs poo and was covered in it, there is more risk in that.  >:(  >:(

Offline bluegirl

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Re: barf debate
« Reply #69 on: June 05, 2006, 12:41:19 AM »
The benefit of raw feeding is for my dogs. I love my dogs and in the past have used commercial foods, but I always felt I could do better. I first started using herbs when my old dogs became ill and they were of great benefit, after loosing my old dog I decided enough was enough and I chose to feed raw in the belief that I could provide my dogs with much better nutrition than any commercial diet, I would provide a species specific diet that in the long run would help my dog to live a long and healthy life without putting them at risk from unneccessary suffering from a diet which could produce so many life threatening diseases. Cancer is now a big killer of dogs.( much like the introduction of refined sugars to our diet has increased cancers rates and other diseases in humans).  In wild dogs which ate a natural raw diet these diseases were virtually unheard of and as wolves and dogs differed genetically by less than 1% I was compelled to try raw feeding.I am very happy with the results and my family have remained safe, although there are risks in everything I believe any threat they face is minimal. I should be interested if there is any evidence to show how many of these diseases have been picked up by raw feeders and their families, I would suggest by the amount of followers this type of feeding it is a very small risk.
You asked for my reasons and I have responded, I am happy to hear your opinions but just as I cannot alter your paranoia about these bugs you cannot change my views about raw feeding. I shall continue to believe it is the only choice for my dogs. I hope it has given you some insight into my choice to raw feed.
Karen, Penny, Logan, Phoebe and Bronte.


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Offline Helen

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Re: barf debate
« Reply #70 on: June 05, 2006, 06:40:38 AM »
I am having difficulty in understanding why people cannot see the risk of feeding your dog raw meat when the dog then carries of therisk of getting a serious infection itself and also of shedding these live pathogens in their faeces. These pathogens are not normally passed in faeces but result from the dog having ingested them. We are told to handle meat in a certain way, ensure it is thoroughly cooked etc to eliminate the risk - that is why raw meat carries an element of risk. It is not the dog - most pathogens that live in dogs do not affect humans, but those causing food poisoning do.

This is an increased risk for children because they do not deal with these pathogens as effectively (we have all heard the stories about the nurseries and the e-coli scares), and also because they are much more likely to be in contact with dog faeces than adults or dogs mouths or toys or feeding dishes. Not feeding raw meat reduces the risk/ How many of us would actually consider feeding raw meat to children.

Look I think this is getting a bit silly also - I believe it to be a genuine risk. This is not just my opinion but the considered opinion of many vets and environmental health experts. We can argue until we are blue in the face - but there it is. It comes down on how big a risk you judge it to be. I judge it to be an unnecssary risk when I have 2 small children in the house. None of this takes into account the risk to the dog - which may be minimal, but still exists. Nobody can predict which meat or animal will be affected.

i've been reading this thread with intererest, and i (as you know) would prefer to feed barf to jarv and am heading that way - not only because at least i'd know what he has in his food, but also ethically i'm not convinced that the large dog food companies have our best friends interests at heart - the testing dog food on dogs has been done before on here so i'm not going to start that.

kb, you've researched this thoroughly and i understand the risks you speak of....but i'm not convinced that the 'risk' transfers directly  into cases of these diseases occuring in humans...is there documented proof of barf fed dogs transferring disease onto humans? and if so a percentage would be helpful to measure the risk?  i would think more of a risk would be a dog eating a rotting carcass on a walk, or discarded infected 'human' food, or fox poo, or a mexy rabbit, or another dogs poo etc etc....

and isn't the risk of disease everywhere you turn these days?? it's probably more likely to get salmonella from your local take out house than something from your dog, or mrsa from your local hospital....

what really is in the commercial dog food? (apart from burns or arden grange or autarky which seem to be 'ethically' good and use decent food products...)  we all know that there are additives in foods (such as bakers), that can affect your dogs behaviour -  it's been mentioned here before many times, and i know that some commercial treats can send jarvis hyper - i don't want to risk that...i would rather go back to basics and raw, on balance, is my preference.





helen & jarvis x


Offline *Jay*

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Re: barf debate
« Reply #71 on: June 05, 2006, 07:31:22 AM »
OK now I'm lost! What on earth is campylobacter?  :huh: But more importantly, is it something I can ring in sick with tomorrow as I really need the day off?!

A type of bacterium that can cause illness in humans. ;)

Well that's my sicknote sorted then!  ;)

But on a more serious note - what are the chances of actually catching any of these things mentioned in this debate? If we were to worry about everything we would never leave the house or own any pet!

I got Disney's poo sample results back on Friday and he has campylobacter. He is fed on Arden Grange and I can't even blame the chicken wings as he won't eat them :005: :005:
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Offline sarahp

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Re: barf debate
« Reply #72 on: June 05, 2006, 08:11:27 AM »
I got Disney's poo sample results back on Friday and he has campylobacter. He is fed on Arden Grange and I can't even blame the chicken wings as he won't eat them :005: :005:

And Dill's fed raw and his poop (tested 3 weeks ago) was clear of all known bugs, parasites and nasties  ;) ;)
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Offline Rhona W

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Re: barf debate
« Reply #73 on: June 05, 2006, 08:23:29 AM »


I got Disney's poo sample results back on Friday and he has campylobacter. He is fed on Arden Grange and I can't even blame the chicken wings as he won't eat them :005: :005:
[/quote]

OK. We are in the process of weaning our dogs off Bakers (don't say a word!  :D ) onto Arden Grange. Perhaps I shouldn't!

Gill - did your vet tell you that there was a danger of humans catching campylobacter from Disney's poo and if so how much of a chance? And what happens if you do get it? What effects does it have on people?

Edited to say: Oops. Something went wrong with my quote bit then!

Offline Magic Star

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Re: barf debate
« Reply #74 on: June 05, 2006, 08:35:06 AM »
Just a quick question if people decide not to feed a dried kibble or a wet complete food in favour of feeding just meat why does the meat have to be raw?  Why can't it be cooked meat?  I've probably missed the answer to this on one of the many threads about Barf, but I just wondered, also why, if a raw diet is soo good for the dogs and peeps are claiming that thats what happened in the wild etc etc do you have to supplement the diet with oils and vitamins etc?   I am genuinely interested in the reply to this, so please don't shout me down ;) :D