CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: kate2 on October 22, 2014, 03:30:57 PM
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I probably know the answer to this already... but is there any way to stop a cocker from chasing things?!?? >:D ph34r
Kiwi is obsessed with chasing crows and magpies, and off lead she will leg it after them full pelt (they always fly off!), that's fine in the open fields but I'm petrified she's going to do it near a road one day :(
She's not very food motivated out on a walk, unlike Lilly who will do a beautiful "with me" heel in exchange for some kibble, whereas Kiwi will bungee back and forth and prefers to sniff and chase and play!
I don't want to stop her having fun, but I need her to stay safe :'( we are on step 1 of the "whistle recall" from Top Barks so will see how that works when she's chasing, but is there anything I can do to discourage her?
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I`ll be interested to see any replies to this..... :shades: that works!!!
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So would I!
Dolly loves the water and swimming after wildfowl is her greatest pleasure with me shouting and whistling her back with little or no success.
Silkie on the other hand is totally fixated on seagulls and crows.
David
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Me too! Jinley will chase anything that moves until it stops then she loses interest. Has even chased sheep we came across very unexpectedly on a COL walk and herded them like a sheep dog. We almost imagined just one of them to be in a pen on its own when we got round the corner. She came back as soon as they stopped running, but I must admit my heart was in my mouth for a while.
Nightmare when we go to my daughters with chickens / goats etc etc in the fields the only thing she never touched were the large white ducks as one pinned her down when she was a puppy! Still gives swans and geese a wide berth around the lake on her daily walk, but the poor squirrels and ducks :shades: ph34r
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When Honey was a youngster, she started hairing off after horses... obviously this was potentially dangerous!
We continued training a decent recall, did steadiness work on a long line to try and counter-condition the chase instinct, but also carried a squeaky toy as an emergency interrupter in case she chased suddenly... this worked really well, and to this day we can recall her away from any animal except a fox (including a deer stepping out about 10 feet in front of her!)... a fox she initially chases but we can recall after about 10 seconds...
(Oh, she's awful with cats, but much improved....)
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For us the key was being food motivated. We did Top Barks recall with Ben who chased everything, ran to eat things and rolled in everything he could find. After a couple of months of really consistent trading at the age of 6 Ben was a reformed character :luv: and the last 5 years have been a joy, he will walk through sheep, deer, birds without a second glance.
Harry had been allowed to chase birds when he came to us, and is not as food motivated as Ben so it has taken a couple of years to get to him being good but not brilliant with chasing. He does go off lead, but near sheep he trails a long line just in case and if there are pheasants then I know he will go. So we have to watch him all the time
Good luck with Kiwi it's worth doing the training but just know the limitations of what she will do .
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Jinley isnt food motivated - will try squeaky toy space hopper and see how it goes
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well they both chased a flock of sheep this morning >:D :embarassed: :( with me yelling and flapping and running and calling.. eventually Lilly came running back and then Kiwi - lesson learnt, both on lead in fields where there are sheep even if the sheep are right over the other side of the field! (they had walked through the same field fine on the way out, but the sheep were all laying down then!)
one sheep stopped and Kiwi immediately turned away from it and went after the rest, so they do just want to chase things that run, not interested when they stand still! not much consolation to the poor sheep though! :embarassed: :(
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Diesel will go after anything with wings, planes included, we are on a flight path so you can imagine him trying to chase and catch a plane even in the dark. His recall isn't very good at all because he gets so distracted and once he is worked up we can't get him to calm.
Have tried lots of methods. Out last resort is top barks. Tried it once before but diesel just wouldn't entertain the idea at the time so We are back on step 1 so it would be interesting to see what kind of results we both have.
Our other pup hunter has great recall and so far hasn't gone after anything other than a man coming home with his shopping. Must have been something tasty in the bag.
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I'm sure your aware but if not then be aware that if a farmer finds dogs worrying his sheep he has the right to shoot first and ask questions later.
David
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yes I am aware!
"lesson learnt, both on lead in fields where there are sheep even if the sheep are right over the other side of the field! "
I just was caught off guard this morning :(
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http://totallygundogs.com/how-to-prevent-your-dog-chasing-things/ (http://totallygundogs.com/how-to-prevent-your-dog-chasing-things/)
this looks like a good article :) might check out some gundog training!!
"Working bred Springer spaniels (and cockers too) are ‘hard-wired’ to hunt. That is to say they are born with a powerful instinct to search for, flush and chase anything that moves. "
"Effective gundog training is a process of teaching the dog ’what to do’ in any given situation, rather than teaching him ’what not to do’. Strictly speaking, we don’t teach a dog ‘not to chase game’. Rather we teach him what he should do in the presence of game. This might be to complete his retrieve, or to walk to heel if he is a retriever, or to sit to flushing game if he is a spaniel. A working gundog is always on a ‘mission’ whether that mission is a retrieve or to hunt. The dog knows what his mission is, and understands that he must stick to the job in hand and not change the rules in any way."
"The pet gundog is often exposed to a situation in which he has no absolutely no idea what he is supposed to be doing. Commonly this is referred to as a ‘walk’."
"Once the puppyish phase of a strong dependency on the owner is past, typically at 6-9 months of age, the young gundog with his inbuilt hunting instinct, when taken for a walk, will hunt. After all, the owner hasn’t asked him to do anything else, so hunting seems like the best plan. Sooner or later something will move - a leaf, a bird, a rabbit and the dog, already in ‘prey drive’ and ‘high’ on adrenaline will give chase. Your whistle or desperate pleas for the dog to return have absolutely no chance whatsoever of being obeyed."
"Teach your dog to follow you, not the other way around"
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I'm glad I'm not alone!
Tilly's recall has been pretty good for a while now (after a couple of scary incidents when she chased rabbits in the spring) but in the past couple of weeks she has suddenly gone completely mad whenever there are birds around. Even if they are in the sky! I was very amused the first time she tried to chase some birds who were way up in the sky but that amusement has now firmly worn off. She ignores calls and even high value treats won't lure her back.
We tend to walk in quiet fields, not near main roads and admittedly she has always come back eventually but my worry is that she'll just run too far one day. I also don't like feeling that I have absolutely no control over her whatsoever.
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I would like to say we were having some success with this, but this morning same as Louisa, we were in an enclosed field so she couldn't come to any harm, she was being good as gold doing small circles around me and fetching a ball, but then suddenly she was off chasing a bird in the sky barking at it, ignoring all recall (and she knew I had chicken). I even tried the whistle in desperation but completely ignored that as well :(
Like Tilly she does always come back eventually, and after a few minutes she decided to check in again, but what do you do then? I didn't want to clip her on the lead as soon as she came back, but then she legged it off again! so I did clip her on the second time (and we were nearing the gate). I had her on a long line at the beginning of the walk, but she's not learning not to chase on that, she's just being stopped from doing it! she was being very good up till that point hence I took her off the long line (she does run in and out of bushes!)
Am I destined to have her on a longline forever? :(
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Once the dog is off running/chasing something there's no point in recalling them because they're not going to respond, all their focus is on the object of the chase and they literally don't hear you. You are also devaluing the recall command because they're ignoring you. Only recall your dog if you are absolutely certain that they are going to obey you, otherwise they're learning that it's ok to come back on the 5th, 6th, 7th recall - or when they feel like it/not at all. Chasing is an intrinsically rewarding behaviour - you don't have to teach the dog to like it, the chase itself is sufficient reward to keep the dog wanting to do it. At the moment, for your dog the internal thrill and reward of the chase is far, far greater than any external reinforcer you have - tennis ball, chicken etc.
This means that once chasing behaviour has become established it is very difficult to break simply because the dog enjoys doing it, and it's very hard to compete with that enjoyment - it's like you finding your absolute favourite hobby then somebody tries to stop you doing it, usually when you're right in the middle of it. It's not impossible, but it takes a huge amount of persistence and repetition because you need to reprogramme the dog to channel their chase instinct into something that you can control. You can't get rid of the chase instinct, it's hardwired into them, but you can manage and control it. This takes total persistence and consistency as every time they manage to get away and chase that internal reward system kicks in again, the behaviour is reinforced, and you put yourself back to square one. To stop them chasing things you must prevent them from doing it, absolutely and at all times. They must NEVER get the opportunity to perform the behaviour because all it does is reinforce the positive feedback loop in their brain and make it more addictive and more likely that they'll keep doing it.
Regardless of what method you use you must ensure that you maintain total control of it until your control of the dog's behaviour is proofed to a sufficient level; so if you're working them on a long line then you need to keep them on that line and control the environment they are in until you are certain that the desired alternative behaviour has been instilled and proofed in all circumstances with increasing levels of distractions up to whatever the 'ultimate' is for your dog (birds, rabbits etc.). There's no real saying how long this might take, it really depends on the individual dog and how ingrained the chase behaviour is etc. In this case you haven't given your dog nearly enough time or work yet to get to this stage, hence her taking off this morning.
There's no point in saying '(s)he has been on a line for a couple of hours/days/weeks now and hasn't chased anything, so I'll let him/her off the line in this field' because in this case the dog is only not chasing because they haven't had the opportunity to - as soon as a rabbit runs out in front of them or a bird takes off 10 feet away then bam, off they go. If the reprogramming hasn't yet happened and your control of them isn't proofed to a sufficient level and the dog is exposed to their chase triggers then they will chase - why wouldn't they? - they haven't yet learned that you're offering them anything better than the internal thrill they get from the chase.
I've been to a predatory chasing seminar with David Ryan, who is a clinical animal behaviourist and was chair of the APBC for several years. He runs these seminars regularly and they are extremely good. He also has a book called 'Stop: How to control predatory chasing in dogs' which I would recommend anyone having these issues with their dog should read. There is a lot of information on his website too, particularly this article: http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/how-do-i-stop-my-dog-chasing/
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Thanks Nicola for the reply and all the info, it does all make sense and I know better than to try and recall when she's off :( I was just hoping she would change her mind!!
I will order that book and take a read, she is the more energetic of the two so I feel bad for keeping her on a lead when she loves to run around and has lots of energy to burn! Lilly stays with me even when Kiwi is off chasing, so at least I only lose one dog! :-\ I will do more research and training, hopefully will work in the end!
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I just had a look at your Flicker photos. What wonderful pictures of beautiful dogs.
David
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I just had a look at your Flicker photos. What wonderful pictures of beautiful dogs.
David
Thank you :D The Lab, Goldie, black German Shepherd and Border Collie in some of the photos belong to friends; the two ginger working Cockers and the liver working Cocker are mine! The little liver roan working Cocker is a foster dog I had for a while who was rehomed to a COL member. I used to post a lot of photos of my dogs on here but don't really find the time so much these days.
Kate, I would recommend that you take the dogs out individually as much as you can while you're working on Kiwi's chasing as you need to focus on her, and even if Lilly is well behaved there will be times when your attention is on her rather than on Kiwi and her environment. Plus that way Lilly also gets equal attention when she's out.
My dogs are all trained for working and/or competition, but when I get a new dog, regardless of if it's a very small puppy or a bit older, all of their out and about time is one on one just me and them until they have reached a level that I'm happy with. I don't do 'walks' with my puppies/young dogs, I take them out for 4-5 10-15 minute sessions a day but it's a mix of training and play with me, and I keep their focus on me at all times. I do not want them getting bored and learning to go and look for their own amusement, it's up to me to amuse them hence the short sessions and keeping the whole thing as a big fun, unpredictable game; there's lots of running around in random directions clapping my hands encouraging them to follow me, calling and talking to them in a very high pitched happy voice and getting down on the ground with them to play - I spend an awful lot of time kneeling, sitting or lying on the ground with puppy climbing all over me. I want them to learn that I am the ultimate fun a puppy can possibly have and I am the source of all enjoyment, but they never quite know what fun thing I'm going to do or bring out next so it pays to focus on me. The rule is that if I don't look and sound like a total idiot then I'm not trying hard enough :lol2: At no time do I ever let them go more than a few yards away from me. I would do the same with an older dog that had chase or recall issues. They get downtime/playtime/mooching around time with the other dogs every day but only in an area that I can totally control such as the garden or a very 'boring', completely animal free, smallish, securely fenced area, and they mix freely in the house, but when out anywhere else for exercise/training it's just me and them. I posted this thread shortly after I got Caoimhe, she was about 5 months old and we were working in an enclosed, gated park in Edinburgh city centre. This was where I did all of her initial training, she was made up to Field Trial Champion at 3 years old and her controlled start did her nothing but good: http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=61372.0
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I couldn't agree more with what Nicola says.
I have been really working hard with my wcs on the stop whistle. If she flushes anything she wants to chase it. Like Nicola said, if this does happen I don't blow the whistle as it is setting her up to fail because I know that at the moment she is unlikely to stop. However, we did have a small breakthrough this morning when some ducks were on a large puddle ahead of us. I had the whistle in my mouth and as soon as I saw her spot them I blew, she stopped and I threw her ball. When she bought it back to me I let her carry on and the minute she started heading towards the ducks I blew again and she stopped, turned to me and I threw her ball again. At this point the ducks flew off and she came back with the ball. Job done :D
Having the ball as a reward for stopping has been the breakthrough for her. It has made her more focused on me and as soon as she sees the whistle come out and the ball (bright pink, squidgy, squeaky) she has one eye on me.
Rabbits are still something we have to work on though >:(