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Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: Ben's mum on September 08, 2017, 10:15:11 PM

Title: Legally docked question
Post by: Ben's mum on September 08, 2017, 10:15:11 PM
I'm not wanting to start a debate about docking just wanted to ask a question, I am tentitively looking at breeders/puppies, OH says its too soon after losing Ben, but I am puppy broody  ;) and it doesnt hurt to look !

I have been surprised to see puppies advertised as 'legally docked and dewclawed' even though they are clearly not workers, have things changed now ?  its been so long since I looked at puppies. My understanding was docking was allowed if pups were going to a working home, so has this changed in recent years or have i misunderstood. As much as I love workers, I don't think we have the right sort of lifestyle so it would be another show boy probably  :luv: and I was expecting a full tail like Harry.

Thank you for any help or advice  :D

Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: ips on September 09, 2017, 03:37:30 AM
I'm not wanting to start a debate about docking just wanted to ask a question, I am tentitively looking at breeders/puppies, OH says its too soon after losing Ben, but I am puppy broody  ;) and it doesnt hurt to look !

I have been surprised to see puppies advertised as 'legally docked and dewclawed' even though they are clearly not workers, have things changed now ?  its been so long since I looked at puppies. My understanding was docking was allowed if pups were going to a working home, so has this changed in recent years or have i misunderstood. As much as I love workers, I don't think we have the right sort of lifestyle so it would be another show boy probably  :luv: and I was expecting a full tail like Harry.

Thank you for any help or advice  :D

Your understanding is correct. The vet must be satisfied that the dog was bred for working and will be worked.
That's how I read it.
Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: bizzylizzy on September 09, 2017, 07:45:20 AM
I'm not wanting to start a debate about docking just wanted to ask a question, I am tentitively looking at breeders/puppies, OH says its too soon after losing Ben, but I am puppy broody  ;) and it doesnt hurt to look !

I have been surprised to see puppies advertised as 'legally docked and dewclawed' even though they are clearly not workers, have things changed now ?  its been so long since I looked at puppies. My understanding was docking was allowed if pups were going to a working home, so has this changed in recent years or have i misunderstood. As much as I love workers, I don't think we have the right sort of lifestyle so it would be another show boy probably  :luv: and I was expecting a full tail like Harry.

Thank you for any help or advice  :D

Your understanding is correct. The vet must be satisfied that the dog was bred for working and will be worked.
That's how I read it.

Just out of pure curiosity, - I have no knowledge or opinion on docking or breeding regulations but am interested  how a vet can  be satisfied that the dog will be worked before its  been sold? Would the breeder/seller be bound to stipulate conditions of sale?
Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: Emilyoliver on September 09, 2017, 08:34:41 AM
The vet needs to be satisfied that the intent is to sell the puppies to working homes. The 'evidence' required is either a shotgun licence held by owner of the bitch or a letter from a gamekeeper stating that the bitch works on his shoot.
Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: Ben's mum on September 09, 2017, 08:51:26 AM
Thank you all for clarifying thats what i thought, perhaps i am just making a lazy assumption that show cockers won't be working, i guess there is a possibilty they might, i was just surprised to see it.  :D
Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: JeffD on September 09, 2017, 10:15:46 AM
I would be very surprised to see a litter of pedigree show cockers that have been docked, Dogs with docked tails can not enter any KC show.
Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: bizzylizzy on September 09, 2017, 10:44:31 AM
Thanks. - that's something new I learned today, and not anything I'd ever even thought about before! What a mine of information COL is!!  ;)
Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: Jaysmumagain on September 09, 2017, 12:03:24 PM
Just to say I too believe that the shotgun license is the proof needed for docking.
Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: EmmaRose on September 09, 2017, 01:27:48 PM
I saw a litter of cocker puppies earlier this year (for work - not me!) and they were docked, the mother had been to a shoot before although wasn't regularly worked and the breeder had a shotgun license which is how he was able to have them docked.
Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: JeffD on September 11, 2017, 11:04:02 AM
Most breeders of working cockers know that future working owners prefer dogs with docked tails, nothing to do with looks its just lessens the risk of tail damage. Lots of worker pups for pet homes are for sale with out docks and they do have wonderful swishy floor cleaning tails
Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: TheAdventuresofBarnaby on September 11, 2017, 01:51:21 PM
I understand that where permission for docking is given, it relates to the entire litter.  Also because docking early is regarded as less traumatic for the pups,  the whole litter get docked at the same time,  even though some may end up going to non-working homes.
Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: Macie-Working-Cocker on September 12, 2017, 12:47:23 PM
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Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: Emilyoliver on September 12, 2017, 02:02:39 PM
The breeder I got my working cocker from owned both the stud and the bitch. The stud was worked on a regular basis but the bitch was not. When the bitch fell pregnant the ad was up weeks prior to the birth in which time we were screened to check we were suitable for having her (Many people were turned away). We were honest and indicated we had no intention of working her but that she would have a very active lifestyle as this breed required.. as a result she was not docked.
Prior to the birth we were not guaranteed a bitch but stated this was our preference. We were second to contact the breeder so had second choice upon the birth. She had a litter of 8 with 5 bitches, the day of the birth we made our selection and so did the others. The pups that were going to working homes were then legally docked and those that were not weren't.

The only downfall to this method was that you chose your pup at a very early stage so it's hard to see what sort of size they may be, any imperfections etc.. however this was a proven breeder with a long pedigree blood line, plenty of health checks had been completed and previous litters produced flawless pups so we were happy to go off that basis.

I personally think this breeders method was spot on with screening before deciding whether the pup required docking or not. I have had the odd comment of a working owner asking why I did not get her tail docked but i'm sure if it was docked id have had a lot more wondering why it was docked when I do not work her. If I breed her, I will use the method the breeder used.
The risk in this is that you may end up with undocked puppies at the end of the process that are difficult to sell if any of the 'undocked buyers' pulled out between choosing and taking puppies home.  Seems to be quite common for people to pull out of buying a puppy halfway through the process.  While some people like undocked working cockers, most people who will work them won't buy an undocked puppy.  I definitely wouldn't.  As you also said - it's very difficult to choose a puppy at a day old, and by leaving some undocked you're limiting the choice of other buyers (and vice versa).  I think you were lucky with your breeder.  Most will either dock the whole litter, or not (mostly because the legislation doesn't allow them to).  Also, if you don't work your bitch, do you have a shotgun licence?  because if not you will find it difficult to get any of the puppies docked.  And most people wanting a puppy for work will be looking at pups by working parents.  Might be best to just have an all undocked litter for pet homes.
Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: ips on September 12, 2017, 02:33:04 PM
The breeder I got my working cocker from owned both the stud and the bitch. The stud was worked on a regular basis but the bitch was not. When the bitch fell pregnant the ad was up weeks prior to the birth in which time we were screened to check we were suitable for having her (Many people were turned away). We were honest and indicated we had no intention of working her but that she would have a very active lifestyle as this breed required.. as a result she was not docked.
Prior to the birth we were not guaranteed a bitch but stated this was our preference. We were second to contact the breeder so had second choice upon the birth. She had a litter of 8 with 5 bitches, the day of the birth we made our selection and so did the others. The pups that were going to working homes were then legally docked and those that were not weren't.

The only downfall to this method was that you chose your pup at a very early stage so it's hard to see what sort of size they may be, any imperfections etc.. however this was a proven breeder with a long pedigree blood line, plenty of health checks had been completed and previous litters produced flawless pups so we were happy to go off that basis.

I personally think this breeders method was spot on with screening before deciding whether the pup required docking or not. I have had the odd comment of a working owner asking why I did not get her tail docked but i'm sure if it was docked id have had a lot more wondering why it was docked when I do not work her. If I breed her, I will use the method the breeder used.
The risk in this is that you may end up with undocked puppies at the end of the process that are difficult to sell if any of the 'undocked buyers' pulled out between choosing and taking puppies home.  Seems to be quite common for people to pull out of buying a puppy halfway through the process.  While some people like undocked working cockers, most people who will work them won't buy an undocked puppy.  I definitely wouldn't.  As you also said - it's very difficult to choose a puppy at a day old, and by leaving some undocked you're limiting the choice of other buyers (and vice versa).  I think you were lucky with your breeder.  Most will either dock the whole litter, or not (mostly because the legislation doesn't allow them to).  Also, if you don't work your bitch, do you have a shotgun licence?  because if not you will find it difficult to get any of the puppies docked.  And most people wanting a puppy for work will be looking at pups by working parents.  Might be best to just have an all undocked litter for pet homes.

Must admit I find it most odd for a working breeder to only dock half a litter !!
Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: Macie-Working-Cocker on September 12, 2017, 02:34:49 PM
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Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: vixen on September 12, 2017, 02:35:38 PM

. She had a litter of 8 with 5 bitches, the day of the birth we made our selection and so did the others. The pups that were going to working homes were then legally docked and those that were not weren't.

I find this very odd  :huh:  Did you physically select your girl? Most breeders will not allow visitors any where near a new born litter of puppies due to risk of infection.
A breeder who has a litter from an actual working bitch couldn't possibly know which puppy they are going to select to go to working or non working homes as at this age the puppies wouldn't have shown any characteristics.
Most breeders with a working litter would wish their puppies to go to a working home and thus have all the litter docked.  Usuallly working homes would get priority of choice and any remaining would be offered to a non-working but active home.
That is my understanding anyway.
Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: Macie-Working-Cocker on September 12, 2017, 02:38:43 PM
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Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: ips on September 12, 2017, 02:46:49 PM
But surely at the time of birth the "working breeder" assumes all will go to working homes so docks the litter as is the done thing.
It is my opinion that working cockers should be docked even if they are not going to working homes because at some time the dog is going to hunt some cover weather the owner likes it or not and a WC tail never stops wagging even if its in heavy bramble.
Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: Macie-Working-Cocker on September 12, 2017, 02:51:54 PM
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Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: vixen on September 12, 2017, 02:54:06 PM
My personal belief is that owners of working cocker biitches who don't actually work their dogs, shouldn't breed from them.  So many pet working cockers are now being bred who have never 'worked' a single day in their lives.  I really feel that the wonderful biddability of the breed that I love is being diluted by this practice.  I have seen many a working cocker bred from pet parents who is out of control and ends up in rescue. They have all the instincts of the breed but none of the biddability.
Soon there will be a division just like what happened with the show and working strain.  There will be yet another type that are the non working workers who will be ones with the undocked tails.
It is just my opinion and I am sure lots of people will disagree with it.
Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: ips on September 12, 2017, 02:57:45 PM
Keep her tail feathers trimmed short to avoid getting stuck when the little madam inevitably chases a bunny wabbit into bramble 😁

Regardless of any comments above it sounds like you have an ideal active lifestyle for a WC 👍
Enjoy the ride 😊
Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: ips on September 12, 2017, 02:58:44 PM
My personal belief is that owners of working cocker biitches who don't actually work their dogs, shouldn't breed from them.  So many pet working cockers are now being bred who have never 'worked' a single day in their lives.  I really feel that the wonderful biddability of the breed that I love is being diluted by this practice.  I have seen many a working cocker bred from pet parents who is out of control and ends up in rescue. They have all the instincts of the breed but none of the biddability.
Soon there will be a division just like what happened with the show and working strain.  There will be yet another type that are the non working workers who will be ones with the undocked tails.
It is just my opinion and I am sure lots of people will disagree with it.

Totally agree 👍
Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: Emilyoliver on September 12, 2017, 03:05:45 PM
My personal belief is that owners of working cocker biitches who don't actually work their dogs, shouldn't breed from them.  So many pet working cockers are now being bred who have never 'worked' a single day in their lives.  I really feel that the wonderful biddability of the breed that I love is being diluted by this practice.  I have seen many a working cocker bred from pet parents who is out of control and ends up in rescue. They have all the instincts of the breed but none of the biddability.
Soon there will be a division just like what happened with the show and working strain.  There will be yet another type that are the non working workers who will be ones with the undocked tails.
It is just my opinion and I am sure lots of people will disagree with it.
I agree.  And there is already a split within the working type.  There are those  bred specifically for agility.  Usually required to be as small as possible, yappy and manic.  A far cry from the great working gundogs they should be.
Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: Macie-Working-Cocker on September 12, 2017, 03:09:12 PM
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Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: Londongirl on September 12, 2017, 03:09:57 PM
Keep her tail feathers trimmed short to avoid getting stuck when the little madam inevitably chases a bunny wabbit into bramble 😁

Regardless of any comments above it sounds like you have an ideal active lifestyle for a WC 👍
Enjoy the ride 😊

As someone who regularly has to disentangle both ears at once of a show cocker who's gone head first into the brambles, I'd say carry nail scissors.
Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: ips on September 12, 2017, 03:10:12 PM
Could one also argue another split. Those bred for FT and those from more "propper" working line ??

I will get my coat 😁
Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: ips on September 12, 2017, 03:15:42 PM
My personal belief is that owners of working cocker biitches who don't actually work their dogs, shouldn't breed from them.  So many pet working cockers are now being bred who have never 'worked' a single day in their lives.  I really feel that the wonderful biddability of the breed that I love is being diluted by this practice.  I have seen many a working cocker bred from pet parents who is out of control and ends up in rescue. They have all the instincts of the breed but none of the biddability.
Soon there will be a division just like what happened with the show and working strain.  There will be yet another type that are the non working workers who will be ones with the undocked tails.
It is just my opinion and I am sure lots of people will disagree with it.

I don't think people who don't necessarily want to work them but love the breed and have the perfect home for them should be told they can't have one because the tail wont be docked on it and it wont be worked. Yet they can offer is all the exercise and commitment it needs otherwise.

Mine is exercised just as much, if not more than any that is worked, she is in perfect condition and very content so it can be done.

It can actually be said both ways. A local bloke who lives along a trail I use claims to be this big hunting man, wears all the gear, talks the talk yet I never see his dogs being worked and whenever I pass they are in his lock up without fail.. and he has a two working cockers among other breeds. I would go as far as to say they look overweight and depressed yet he's this big hunting bloke with all this experience. Im sure there's plenty of those out there too.

Many gundog folk do not exercise there dogs per se (as in free running or walks) its kennel, train / work kennel etc.

Ps
I totally agree about being able to occupy a working dog but not work it. Trouble is not everyone has the understanding as you obviously have of what a commitment it is to have a working dog . Hence rescue centres being inundated with spaniels who's owners bought them because they looked cute
Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: Emilyoliver on September 12, 2017, 03:18:35 PM
Could one also argue another split. Those bred for FT and those from more "propper" working line ??

I will get my coat 😁
I think so.  Although the 'not quite fast enough' trialling bred dogs very often make excellent working dogs.
Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: vixen on September 12, 2017, 03:19:02 PM

I don't think people who don't necessarily want to work them but love the breed and have the perfect home for them should be told they can't have one because the tail wont be docked on it and it wont be worked. Yet they can offer is all the exercise and commitment it needs otherwise.

My comments were not directed at you personally as I am sure you offer your girl a perfect home.
But you stated yourself you would have purchased a docked dog if you hadn't had a choice.  Most reputable breeders of working cockers usually give priority to working homes and what is left over is offered to a active pet home (hence the whole litter is docked).
Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: Macie-Working-Cocker on September 12, 2017, 03:27:57 PM
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Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: ips on September 12, 2017, 03:34:08 PM
Keep her tail feathers trimmed short to avoid getting stuck when the little madam inevitably chases a bunny wabbit into bramble 😁

Regardless of any comments above it sounds like you have an ideal active lifestyle for a WC 👍
Enjoy the ride 😊

As someone who regularly has to disentangle both ears at once of a show cocker who's gone head first into the brambles, I'd say carry nail scissors.

Two years ago a friend of a friend lost his WC it was feared stolen from his farm. Six days later it was found by a farm worker entangled in bramble by its ears. Luckily it survived (goodness knows how) but nearly lost both ears.

Edit
Just checked my info on this.
It was six days not ten. And the injury was worse than I remembered 😞
Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: bizzylizzy on September 12, 2017, 05:05:08 PM
Keep her tail feathers trimmed short to avoid getting stuck when the little madam inevitably chases a bunny wabbit into bramble 😁

Regardless of any comments above it sounds like you have an ideal active lifestyle for a WC 👍
Enjoy the ride 😊

As someone who regularly has to disentangle both ears at once of a show cocker who's gone head first into the brambles, I'd say carry nail scissors.

Two years ago a friend of a friend lost his WC it was feared stolen from his farm. Six days later it was found by a farm worker entangled in bramble by its ears. Luckily it survived (goodness knows how) but nearly lost both ears.

Edit
Just checked my info on this.
It was six days not ten. And the injury was worse than I remembered 😞

Good heavens, poor thing!!
Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: JeffD on September 13, 2017, 10:17:32 AM
Could one also argue another split. Those bred for FT and those from more "propper" working line ??

I will get my coat 😁
I think so.  Although the 'not quite fast enough' trialling bred dogs very often make excellent working dogs.

These dogs can not only make great workers they are often better than the hot trialling lines for the general handler, the sort of dog that slips into from pet to worker with no problem.
Title: Re: Legally docked question
Post by: JeffD on September 13, 2017, 10:28:48 AM
My personal belief is that owners of working cocker biitches who don't actually work their dogs, shouldn't breed from them.  So many pet working cockers are now being bred who have never 'worked' a single day in their lives.  I really feel that the wonderful biddability of the breed that I love is being diluted by this practice.  I have seen many a working cocker bred from pet parents who is out of control and ends up in rescue. They have all the instincts of the breed but none of the biddability.
Soon there will be a division just like what happened with the show and working strain.  There will be yet another type that are the non working workers who will be ones with the undocked tails.
It is just my opinion and I am sure lots of people will disagree with it.

I have mixed feelings on this, I now see more workers than show dogs on my walks around here and most are not worked.  I also see those same dogs enjoying life with loving owners how love the character of these little nutters.

I think they will end up like the JRT and the ESS lots in pet homes and those who need a proper worker will buy from working stock