This is an interesting article.

[Cazzie]

Its an article "  " read and binned 

[djangonut]

I am sure that there could be a grain of truth in this article.  In "The Merry Cocker" by Judy Casembrot, written about 70 years ago,  there is mention that like red-haired people,  red cockers may be more fiery than other colours.  It has also been whispered that a chow was implicated in getting the red colour in cockers in the early twentieth century,  and brought its temperament with it.

I do think that most reds are brighter and more of a challenge than other colours,  and some can be pretty possessive.  That's why I have always bred reds and blacks.  I would never consider living with a doormat of a parti-colour - how boring.    Partis are just too nice.  Too biddable.  And a bit dim?

But generalising is fraught with ifs and buts,  and the article did say that 80% of cocker temperament is what we make of it.  If reds are cleverer and have more go than other colours,  then that intelligence and drive can be shaped to make great obedience or agility dogs. 

My ambition has always been to pilot a red show dog to attain its Show Gundog Working Certificate.  I don't think that that has been achieved for aeons.  Does anyone know when?  I can only think of Ch. Broomleaf Bonny Lad of Shillwater,  and his daughter Ch. Solinda of Traquair, in the 1940s and 1950s.  I understand that they were tested on retrieving dummies.  Today the dogs would be tested on fresh shot game.  (Lots of particolours have won this award,  notably those from the great Lucklena kennel.  What goody-two-shoes particolours are!)

John

[Roslyn McConnell]

Oooooooooh well done on citing this article and opening up and interesting debate!!!

I actually spent sooooooo much time writting a reply I timed out  hehehe

Anywho......I agree with Emma,Cob-web and Karma (et al) 
 
The science behind this is absolute mince!!! 50-odd samples would be adequate if they were looking at a 'one-gene-one-trait' example with a high contribution but behaviour has thousands of genes involved each with a low contribution (less than 5%) and collectively with less than environment!
Plus this study is heavy on 'people bias', they dont actually measure anything except what they observe themselves and what might be seen as aggression to someone is playfull puppy behaviour to others! You would think a study into aggression would take advantage of stress hormones such as cortisol etc!?!!!!
Plus how well can the behaviour of a 7 week old puppy predict adult behaviour? A longitudinal study would have been more valid where they reassess the dogs in 5 years time and correlate coat colour to the number of aggressive episodes.....but all the puppies would have to be brought up exactly the same!!!

The golden/red issue is an interesting one however, after all red hair in humans is the only colour which can be predicted by a genetic test before birth as it is caused by a rare mutations rather than several common variations over several genes like other colours.....they also have a different smell etc but I have no idea if this transfers over to dogs....I suspect not. Plus our prison's aren't exactly packed with red-heads are they? Neither are our universities...I would say they are equally distributed throughout all walks of life 

I would think that the bad rep goldens/reds get is down to the improper inbreeding and farming that went on after this colour became hugely popular (was this due to Lady and the Tramp?) decades ago, due to that practice a number of golden puppies with neurological and behavioural issues where born unfairly tainting the reputation of the goldens which had been carefully bread for good temperaments!

Behaviour is such a complex issue, biologically everything from metabolism to even muscle strength can affect it, studies into human behaviour is done on fruit flies in an effort for simplify it, so I think these people were jumping the gun a bit!

Sorry Ive rambled again, I just think that bad science/bad reporting is so detrimental, yes I do think there WAS a small problem with Goldens/reds but I think that this was due to bad breeding practices and not because the golden colour is in the same genetic haplotype as a 'gene for' aggression, simply because I don't think an aggression gene exists. I also believe that proper breeding in recent years has rectified the situation.....I certainly wouldnt be put off a golden cocker, they are lovely 

[Hurtwood Dogs]

Oooooooooh well done on citing this article and opening up and interesting debate!!!

I actually spent sooooooo much time writting a reply I timed out  hehehe

Anywho......I agree with Emma,Cob-web and Karma (et al) 
 
The science behind this is absolute mince!!! 50-odd samples would be adequate if they were looking at a 'one-gene-one-trait' example with a high contribution but behaviour has thousands of genes involved each with a low contribution (less than 5%) and collectively with less than environment!
Plus this study is heavy on 'people bias', they dont actually measure anything except what they observe themselves and what might be seen as aggression to someone is playfull puppy behaviour to others! You would think a study into aggression would take advantage of stress hormones such as cortisol etc!?!!!!
Plus how well can the behaviour of a 7 week old puppy predict adult behaviour? A longitudinal study would have been more valid where they reassess the dogs in 5 years time and correlate coat colour to the number of aggressive episodes.....but all the puppies would have to be brought up exactly the same!!!

The golden/red issue is an interesting one however, after all red hair in humans is the only colour which can be predicted by a genetic test before birth as it is caused by a rare mutations rather than several common variations over several genes like other colours.....they also have a different smell etc but I have no idea if this transfers over to dogs....I suspect not. Plus our prison's aren't exactly packed with red-heads are they? Neither are our universities...I would say they are equally distributed throughout all walks of life 

I would think that the bad rep goldens/reds get is down to the improper inbreeding and farming that went on after this colour became hugely popular (was this due to Lady and the Tramp?) decades ago, due to that practice a number of golden puppies with neurological and behavioural issues where born unfairly tainting the reputation of the goldens which had been carefully bread for good temperaments!

Behaviour is such a complex issue, biologically everything from metabolism to even muscle strength can affect it, studies into human behaviour is done on fruit flies in an effort for simplify it, so I think these people were jumping the gun a bit!

Sorry Ive rambled again, I just think that bad science/bad reporting is so detrimental, yes I do think there WAS a small problem with Goldens/reds but I think that this was due to bad breeding practices and not because the golden colour is in the same genetic haplotype as a 'gene for' aggression, simply because I don't think an aggression gene exists. I also believe that proper breeding in recent years has rectified the situation.....I certainly wouldnt be put off a golden cocker, they are lovely 

I loved reading that  thank you 

Hannah x

[PennyB]

I would never consider living with a doormat of a parti-colour - how boring.    Partis are just too nice.  Too biddable.  And a bit dim?

You don't seem to have met many partis then Mine and all the ones I've met are certainly not thick --- may be they've outwitted you into believing that My two are certainly not biddable but are trained (which is definitely down to the hard work that's put in) and definitely not doormats. Its more than likely you are showing the same prejudice that some sadly reserve for solids

[Jane S]

Sorry Ive rambled again, I just think that bad science/bad reporting is so detrimental, yes I do think there WAS a small problem with Goldens/reds but I think that this was due to bad breeding practices and not because the golden colour is in the same genetic haplotype as a 'gene for' aggression, simply because I don't think an aggression gene exists. I also believe that proper breeding in recent years has rectified the situation.....I certainly wouldnt be put off a golden cocker, they are lovely 

I totally agree Roslyn. The particular recessive gene combination that produces the red colouring in Cockers is the same one that produces the orange colouring in particoloured Cockers (and the red/gold/yellow colour in any number of other breeds from Irish Setters to Cavalier King Charles Spaniels). If this colour really was linked to a specific kind of temperament, why do we not hear the same claims re "challenging" temperaments in relation to orange roan Cockers or any of the other breeds where the red colour is seen? For me, it is far more logical to accept that in the past, some red/gold dogs with poor temperaments were used in breeding programmes because of their show successes or simply to get a colour which became very popular with the public. It's not hard to see if these dogs were used a lot, that problems would be seen in future generations as there is definitely an element of heritability in temperament (although upbringing & training obviously play a vital role too). I'd say the colour of the dogs concerned was really incidental but sadly it has lead to this labelling of red/golds as being "different" even amongst experienced breeders who perhaps ought to know better. I won't even bother to address John's comments about partis as they're clearly designed to be provocative (as so many of his comments are )

[Sarah.H]

I would never consider living with a doormat of a parti-colour - how boring.    Partis are just too nice.  Too biddable.  And a bit dim?

You don't seem to have met many partis then Mine and all the ones I've met are certainly not thick --- may be they've outwitted you into believing that My two are certainly not biddable but are trained (which is definitely down to hard work that's put in) and definitely not doormats. Its more than likely you are showing the same prejudice that some sadly reserve for solids

Exactly what I thought. I've had two solids and two parti colours. The golden boy Sandy was lovely but couldn't learn the most simple task/trick. The blue roan Pepper learned a lot quicker. Charlie is BR and T and is very clever in learning tricks and obediance. Millie is black and needs lots of repeating to learn tricks in tiny steps but is clever in other ways (like how to escape or steal food  ).

[bibathediva]

I wasn't going to comment on johns post but ah oh i feel i have too 
I have 1 of each..my parti-colour is stubborn,will tell you in no uncertain terms if there is something she doesn't want to do..so certainly not a doormat  at times has been a challenge ..so definitely not thick  has always been one step ahead of me..really has kept me on my toes but has turned into my steady eddie...not because she is biddable but i feel from the time and effort i have put into her .

My golden is the most biddable dog i have come across..she is a real people pleaser and a dog i think would work for praise alone ....i have to say though she can also be a bit dumb in the nicest possible way   

[miche]

Oooooooooh well done on citing this article and opening up and interesting debate!!!

I actually spent sooooooo much time writting a reply I timed out  hehehe

Anywho......I agree with Emma,Cob-web and Karma (et al) 
 
The science behind this is absolute mince!!! 50-odd samples would be adequate if they were looking at a 'one-gene-one-trait' example with a high contribution but behaviour has thousands of genes involved each with a low contribution (less than 5%) and collectively with less than environment!
Plus this study is heavy on 'people bias', they dont actually measure anything except what they observe themselves and what might be seen as aggression to someone is playfull puppy behaviour to others! You would think a study into aggression would take advantage of stress hormones such as cortisol etc!?!!!!
Plus how well can the behaviour of a 7 week old puppy predict adult behaviour? A longitudinal study would have been more valid where they reassess the dogs in 5 years time and correlate coat colour to the number of aggressive episodes.....but all the puppies would have to be brought up exactly the same!!!

The golden/red issue is an interesting one however, after all red hair in humans is the only colour which can be predicted by a genetic test before birth as it is caused by a rare mutations rather than several common variations over several genes like other colours.....they also have a different smell etc but I have no idea if this transfers over to dogs....I suspect not. Plus our prison's aren't exactly packed with red-heads are they? Neither are our universities...I would say they are equally distributed throughout all walks of life 

I would think that the bad rep goldens/reds get is down to the improper inbreeding and farming that went on after this colour became hugely popular (was this due to Lady and the Tramp?) decades ago, due to that practice a number of golden puppies with neurological and behavioural issues where born unfairly tainting the reputation of the goldens which had been carefully bread for good temperaments!

Behaviour is such a complex issue, biologically everything from metabolism to even muscle strength can affect it, studies into human behaviour is done on fruit flies in an effort for simplify it, so I think these people were jumping the gun a bit!

Sorry Ive rambled again, I just think that bad science/bad reporting is so detrimental, yes I do think there WAS a small problem with Goldens/reds but I think that this was due to bad breeding practices and not because the golden colour is in the same genetic haplotype as a 'gene for' aggression, simply because I don't think an aggression gene exists. I also believe that proper breeding in recent years has rectified the situation.....I certainly wouldnt be put off a golden cocker, they are lovely 

I loved reading that  thank you 

Hannah x

Yeah me too!!, very well put.

[MegandMolly]

Hannah xx

OMG What a horrific , scary beast! (not!) Glad it's not just my cockers that get dressed up by little girls!

[Hurtwood Dogs]

OMG What a horrific , scary beast! (not!) Glad it's not just my cockers that get dressed up by little girls!

 

That's actually my son...  and those are his pants on both his and Trevs head  Not sure girls are that revolting are they??? 

Hannah xx

[tiamaria]

Trev would have had eyeshadow and pigtails if it was a girl dressing him up! 

[MegandMolly]

Whoops sorry Hannah
Thought it was headbands they were wearing! Suppose girls would have applied make up too!

[Cazzie]

Hannah they are both adorable  And your son obviously has a cracking sence of humour 

[Hurtwood Dogs]

Heh heh he'll find it hilarious he was mistaken for a girl 'girls are megga minging' apparently 

x