Bronze Good Citizen - not going well

[wend]

I stupidly put myself and Harvey in for the Bronze test. He seemed to be doing really well in the class so thought I'd have a go! Well we went to the practice session and found out it will take place INDOORS and you can't use treats. Harvey didn't do anything right, he wouldn't stay, kept pulling, barking and wouldn't settle after going through the door. We had to leave the dogs in the cars for the first 20 mins so that he could explain everything that would happen, when I went back Harvey was hysterical, I never leave him in the car alone. Do you think this is why he couldn't behave or should I just cancel it, I don't want the embarrassment of him doing everything wrong.

[supergirl]

I would suggest making sure that Harvey has had a really good walk beforehand, the kind that would normally see him heading for bed as soon as he gets home, so that he has less energy to play up with.  You could also practice leaving him in the car for short times (say 5 mins) and then gradually build it up, maybe with a stuffed kong to keep him occupied. 

For all my practising for the Bronze I used treats, but occassionally would only pretend to have a treat and the dog would follow quite happily thinking that I had a treat (its mean I know).  Sometimes I would make sure that I had treats in my pocket and make sure that my hands smelt of them even though I had nothing in my hand, and it seemed to be enough to keep the dogs attention.

Also, when we did the test it was also indoors, but we were the only ones in the room - examiner, dog trainer and me and the dog, so there weren't any distractions from other dogs/owners which makes it a lot easier when you're doing your sit/stay.

[Claire7]

To be honest my terrier Brodie is a little $%*£ that would constantly bark at other dogs and certainly not pay any attention to me without any food, he also usually wore a halti to calm him down but he wasn't allowed to wear it . When he passed his Bronze I made sure he'd had a good walk before hand and he was fine, there was nothing too difficult in the test, I'm sure you'll be fine, good luck 

[Cob-Web]

If you don't feel ready, then don't - there's very little point in putting pressure on yourself, and it's not a race 

If you haven't got to the point in your training where he reliable responds to the required commands in new/unusual surroundings without treats, then you will be setting him up to fail by taking the test, really....take your training on the road, and do loads of practice in a variety of places (railway and bus stations are good indoor practice venues) so that you are happy, comfortable and enjoy yourselves 

[cdpops]

I don't understand why rewards can't be used. Surely it is a positive method of training. how can you suddenly expect a dog to behave without rewards if he has received them in all other training sessions. I am sure my OH used treats when Charlie did his. Is this a standard?

[emderpenguin]

We were allowed treats in our test recently (we passed ) but it varies from club to club. One of the trainers in our group isn't keen on people using treats, but said he's not going to stop ppl using them. And he's said with dogs like spaniels they do work better with treats cos they don't have their head on the floor the whole time!

[Mudmagnets]

mm not heard of not being able to use treats for the Bronze Stage - especially when they have used them in training. I wonder if the Judge and Trainer are treating this more as competition obedience, rather than a test to see how well you and your dog behave generally. Were you given the sheet outlining the requirements for the test? and expections of dog and owner?

If you were not given the sheet, then go to Kennel Club website, click on 'working with dogs' then Godd Citizen Award/Bronze and you can read what is required on there. The address below will take you straight there if that helps.
 http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/2850/gcdsbronze.pdf

[hblower]

we had similar problems when we were going to do our Bronze only we were told it would be outdoors and indoors with 15 other dogs all off the lead.  orin kept barking every now and again and i think we were allowed to use treats but in the end we gave up as it was just too exciting for him and he just wanted to play.  when he was out he did everything fine on walks and at home but in classes no way. 

[Cob-Web]

I think the idea that the tests are only taken when the dog is not dependant on rewards is a good one 

I know that these KC tests are about producing canine "good citizens" rather than obedience competitors, but I do think that to test a dogs ability to be a "good citizen", the owners need to be able to show that their dog knows how to behave in real life situations........if your dog escapes through the front door, or from the back of the car, you need to be able to stop her running into the road no matter whether or not you have got a pocketful of treats    A dog in "training mode" is very different from a dog in real life; as demonstrated by Harvey's behaviour when faced with a new location and a unusual situation prior to the training that left him stressed, even though he will behave predictably when in his usual class environment   

If a dog achieves the bronze (silver and gold) KCGC awards in a low distraction, familiar location, with the use of rewards and while in training mode - but cannot replicate that behaviour when faced with a different (less artificial) environment - then are they really "good citizens"? 

[Mudmagnets]

I think the idea that the tests are only taken when the dog is not dependant on rewards is a good one 

I know that these KC tests are about producing canine "good citizens" rather than obedience competitors, but I do think that to test a dogs ability to be a "good citizen", the owners need to be able to show that their dog knows how to behave in real life situations........if your dog escapes through the front door, or from the back of the car, you need to be able to stop her running into the road no matter whether or not you have got a pocketful of treats    A dog in "training mode" is very different from a dog in real life; as demonstrated by Harvey's behaviour when faced with a new location and a unusual situation prior to the training that left him stressed, even though he will behave predictably when in his usual class environment   

If a dog achieves the bronze (silver and gold) KCGC awards in a low distraction, familiar location, with the use of rewards and while in training mode - but cannot replicate that behaviour when faced with a different (less artificial) environment - then are they really "good citizens"? 

This is all very true, but I would say that most clubs (certainly the one I attend) these days training is based quite a lot on treat orientated behaviour, either by simply holding the treat in the hand or the latest idea of clicker/treat training, so to actively encourage the use of treats (not a situation I am overly happy with I will admit) and then suddenly remove them is not easy for dog or handler in a test situation, where nerves play a big part too. Maybe it would be better if dog training did not rely sooo much on treats but on 'goodboy' or a gentle pat? this way if you have not got  handful of treats at any time, the dog would not miss them, and would react the way you wish simply cos you have trained him/her to do so?.

[Cob-Web]

Maybe it would be better if dog training did not rely sooo much on treats but on 'goodboy' or a gentle pat? this way if you have not got  handful of treats at any time, the dog would not miss them, and would react the way you wish simply cos you have trained him/her to do so?.

If that isn't being encouraged in class, then it definitely should be  IMO, treats should be used as a lure to prompt a new behaviour and reward it to begin with - but the continual use of treats once a behaviour is established can actually undermine it....

When I set out to train any new behaviour/trick, my aim is to achieve a response that is not lured or rewarded every time - I don't routinely reward my dogs when they sit and wait as asked at the curb (they might get a good dog once or twice); but this behaviour is reinforced elsewhere through training, because they are rewarded for sitting and waiting at home when they have their dinner 

I'm sure Mark can help me out here with the professional terms and science to back it up; but it surprises me that training classes (especially clicker based ones) are not encouraging their pupils to progress and that the treat/clicker is never phased out - that doesn't sound very challenging to me 

[wend]

The thing thats annoyed me most was the trainer leaving it until the practice session to say 'no treats'. There was a big 'sigh' followed by silence, so I think most of them were surprised too. I've decided to take him on a very long walk that morning with a good 'off lead' run, I'm also going to have cheese in my pocket (so that my hands smell lovely) and reward him in between tests. Not sure if it's aloud but have resigned myself to receiving a 'not ready' result and looking at it more in a 'what do we need to work on' test.

Just to add to my stress (and maybe causing some of the problems) Harvey's got TAPEWORM (saw one in his poo this morning and bits all over his bedding), yuk yuk yuk, have been to vets to be treated and have just had to frontline and worm 4 cats and 2 dogs now I'm covered in scratches!

[Cob-Web]

Not sure if it's aloud but have resigned myself to receiving a 'not ready' result and looking at it more in a 'what do we need to work on' test.

It seems a shame that you fel you have to do it, even though it clearly is causing you stress and anxiety; what with worms and xmas coming up, you should be gentle with yourself 
If you realise part of the way through that he won't achieve a pass, then use the rest of the test as a training exercise so that you come away feeling positive   

[Mudmagnets]

The thing thats annoyed me most was the trainer leaving it until the practice session to say 'no treats'. There was a big 'sigh' followed by silence, so I think most of them were surprised too

Well I can understand that, the trainer should have warned you that this would be the case, so you could start practising in your own time without them. (Unless of course she did not know until told by the examiner??)

I also agree with Cob-Web, treat it as a practice run, then concentrate on the parts you were not ready for in your own time. The more stressed you are the more worried the dog will be too.

[Top Barks]

Gold , Silver, Bronze who gives a monkey's anyway! I just want to have fun with my dogs and that's what it should be all about.
I remember saying to a lecturer before my progressive dog training practical exam at college that I wasn't bothered about the score I achieved as I knew how far Bayley had come and didn't need a test to prove me right.
He was shocked at my response but I was being honest with him and the score (he got 84% by the way) was not important to me in the slightest.
He could have not performed on the day and failed and I still would have known how far he'd come.
Please do not put pressure on yourself to pass any tests dog training is not a race.
Rewards of all types and it does not always have to be food are used to reward good behaviour and to increase the likelyhood of that behaviour happening again.
When I first start training a behaviour I use a 1 behaviour to one reward ratio until the dog completely understands what I want, I then only use enough rewards to maintain the desired response.
I put my dogs on what we call a variable schedule of reward which means they might get rewarded every twice, three times and so on for the same behaviour.
Behaviour can fall apart if foundations of the reward history of it are not strong but once the dog knows the cue you give him and has generalised it fully then it is time to fade out rewards and put the behaviour on a variable schedule of reward which you can thin out still further as long as the dog maintains the desired response.