Problem Behaviour

[daunting]

Can anyone tell me if 'rage syndrome' appears suddenly with affected dogs or is there a gradual build up?
Are there signs to look out for that might give an indication before it gets really bad?
I have looked on the rage sites but they don't really give enough detail.

I have been having problems with my 10mth little girl  - a solid black who will suddenly start growling for no reason and runs across the room doing this.
She seems to be doing it a little more each day - she hasn't attacked anyone yet, but has gone for my other girl who is 15mth, more so i think because she has been the nearest thing to go for.
She is so quiet before and after - i can never find any reason that sets her off.
It can take a couple of minutes for the growling to stop.
She doesn't seem as extreme as the dogs that are on those sites which is why i'm wondering if it builds up before hand.
Any advice or ideas would be most helpful.

[Luvly]

 

[PennyB]

I have been having problems with my 10mth little girl  - a solid black who will suddenly start growling for no reason and runs across the room doing this.
She seems to be doing it a little more each day - she hasn't attacked anyone yet, but has gone for my other girl who is 15mth, more so i think because she has been the nearest thing to go for.
She is so quiet before and after - i can never find any reason that sets her off.
It can take a couple of minutes for the growling to stop.
She doesn't seem as extreme as the dogs that are on those sites which is why i'm wondering if it builds up before hand.
Any advice or ideas would be most helpful.

I'm no expert but I know when you have 2 young male cockers of similar age (i.e. both adolescents) then you can often have problems with them competing for who's boss at this stage. I've also seen this when I stayed at a friends house and her bitch would constantly put Ruby in her place and it looked quite distressing but it was just one dog trying to make sure the other knew her place (and thankfully Ruby did!).

Also out of curiosity has one or the other of your dogs had or due to be in season yet or are they both spayed?

[daunting]

It isn't a case of trying to see who's boss - its definitely the older one Tia!!
Have to say Saffi has always been a bit iffy from when i first had her but seemed to quiten down a little - biting and growling but put that down to puppy phase

Neither are in season at the moment ( the only thing they do when they are in season is get a bit aggressive over their food, apart from that they are fine )

There is usually myself and the 2 dogs in the room, everything is nice and peaceful - nothing going on that will disturb either dogs, Saffi will start growling and race across the room at Tia ( who is minding her own business most times it happens) and then runs back still growling and ignores me telling her to stop.

She even starts growling when she is behind the couch and can't see anything or anyone, and continues for quite a few minutes with her getting louder and louder.
She doesn't always go to attack.
I can't seem to find any reason for her doing this.
It just seems more out of character than her normal behaviour and appears to be getting more each day - about 6 times yesterday!!

My main concern is that i have 4 children and while the teenagers can take care of themselves the youngest who is 6 has been on the receiving end once or twice with saffi growling and biting her - never badly and not during one of her 'episodes' and its normally the childs fault for not leaving her alone!!
Just worried she may get in the way at some time.

 

[padfoot]

Where did you get the pup from?

When you say she bit your 6 year old child, why did she bite, and did she do it aggressively or was she playing?

[Katina]

Has she always been like this or has it started just recently?
Could she be coming into season or has she just had one? All mine get real cranky when in season.

I only just noticed your other post. When did your 10 month old have her last season? As phantom pregnancy can also cause some crankiness in bitches.
 

[daunting]

When Saffi bit it was an aggressive one so was the growling and she was only being smoothed that time - normally have to stop Saffi having too many cuddles as she doesn't like them too much and will growl a warning when she has had enough.
I got her from the same place as Tia from a farm in Carmarthen, they are half sisters - same fathers - different mothers.
I saw both mothers each time but the dad was out on the farm. ( working farm not puppy one).
She has always been like it but it seems to be getting worse lately - she had her season about a month ago and i never noticed any difference in her behaviour ( apart from being possessive over her food bowl - Tia does that too!!)
Just had to stop her attacking again about 1/2hr ago - she was really nasty.
I'm not even sure its directed at Tia - i think she just happens to be the nearest and easiest target as she is down on the floor.
 

[PennyB]

Have you sought the advice of your vet for a referral to a behaviourist. Make sure they don't automatically assume that because a cocker has been aggressive it must be rage (and then don't attempt to help the dog's behavioural problems, e.g. I heard recently that a dog who was quite food possessive was labelled with rage when it was actually just food possessive!), as for yours and your dogs benefit its best to keep an open mind.

It is known that some bitches together can be a no no just as boys of a similar age can be when they reach adolescence, and bitches will not always posture the way that boys do in similar circumstances.

Someone on here (I think it was Katina who's posted above me) had two bitches who she ended up rehoming one as the aggro got worse between them as time went on.

My own dog Ruby was quite a dominant pup so I made a decision to get a male pup next as I felt there would be conflict (the breeder I got both my pups from has had a number of very confident litters so I felt an overconfident bitch to go with Ruby would be a complete disaster so instead I got a confident but quite laid back boy).

What is Saffi like on her own, and on her own with other dogs, as while the other bitch may be 'topdog' this might now be causing conflict (as its not something that's set in stone as time goes on adolescence brings out challenging behaviour in a lot of dogs).

I would also have your vet check your dog out as there could also be a physical problem (it has been known). I know this sounds silly but I know of a bitch who had a bad anal gland problem and she kept beibng attacked by another dog in the household (well that's what they narrowed it down to and after they rehomed the dog who was the aggressor she was fine in her other home and the other bitch still had anal gland probs but wasn't attacked anymore for it)

[daunting]

Saffi is actually the one who suffers with blocked anal glands!!  
I am having to take her to the vets anyway as she keeps getting sores under her chin and needs antibiotics for them so will ask them to check her over.  Hadn't thought that it may be something physical.
The girls get on fine the rest of the time - Saffi does try it on now and again but always get put in her place.
Saffi is very vocal and confident around other dogs - Tia is the one who backs off and hides behind me - such a wimp!
 

[PennyB]

Saffi is actually the one who suffers with blocked anal glands!!  
I am having to take her to the vets anyway as she keeps getting sores under her chin and needs antibiotics for them so will ask them to check her over.  Hadn't thought that it may be something physical.
The girls get on fine the rest of the time - Saffi does try it on now and again but always get put in her place.
Saffi is very vocal and confident around other dogs - Tia is the one who backs off and hides behind me - such a wimp!

Its always best to at least exclude physical things if something happens like this and then work from there. I'd check with your vet about phantom pregnancies as well as she's not long out of her season. Sometimes as bitches (or even dogs) who are close in age get older they just can't get along (which is why I asked how Saffi was away from the home environment away from your other bitch).

[Luvly]

x

[padfoot]

I got her from the same place as Tia from a farm in Carmarthen, they are half sisters - same fathers - different mothers.
I saw both mothers each time but the dad was out on the farm. ( working farm not puppy one).
 

Sadly, from reading the other thread in genetics and breeding, I DO think this place was a puppy farm. Unfortunately Camarthen is an area with several puppy farms...they won't always be instantly recognisable as puppy farms..but they are.

I really think your next port of call as Penny says is to exclude physical reasons for the behaviour. If she is given a clean bill of health by the vet, a consultation with a behaviourist would be the best idea. Your vet might have the details of a behaviourist. But as Penny said, it would be better if possible to speak to someone with experience or knowledge of rage. Some behaviourists don't believe it exists and some blame every problem in cockers on rage, neither approaches are helpful.

I know there is a helpline for rage too, you may be about to get more advice about the dog's behaviour, BUT you really do need to get someone to see the dog first hand. She could be displaying signs of dominant behaviour that could be worked through with help.

[Hel]

Just to back up what Padfoot has posted  - puppy farms don't often look like puppy farms.

It is impossible to tell the difference between aggression and rage via posts on the internet - and sadly many behaviourist and vets can't tell the difference because they usually don't see it and only go on what the owner has said.  

As you have another young bitch who will also have hormones flowing, it may be an aggression issue between the two of them. They are both young females who will be trying it on with each other (regardless of any rage issue).

You need a behaviourist (or an experienced cocker owner who has experience of rage) who knows the difference to spend time with you in your home - and witness an attack.  

Ring up the cocker-rage helpline http://www.cockerspanielrage.org.uk/helpline.htm - Linda will be able to provide so much more help.

 

[PennyB]

Whereabouts are you in the UK

[daunting]

I live about 7miles outside of Swansea.
Have been given a name and number for a pet behaviourist but haven't been able to get in touch with them yet.
I certainly don't want to get one out of the paper - there are a few adverts in each week - would rather go by a recommendation.
Saffi is seeing the vet in the morning so will be asking advice from them as well.