I may lose Archie.- UPDATE - Trainer been, there is hope!!

[Geordietyke]

Just looked at symptoms for HYPERthyroidism (rare) as opposed to HYPOthyroidism (common) and he does have a few of those including weight loss (or difficulty maintaining weight)/increased appetite and eating quickly/frequent weeing/hyper or overactive/restlessness and coat dullness.

Of course, I may just be clutching at straws as it's a rare condition but with my luck, I'd not be surprised 

[ElvieMogs]

Hi Lesley, thanks for the pm otherwise I would have missed this. I've not posted on COL for ages and for much the same reason as you. As you know our Madoc was an uncle of Archie being half brother to Archie's mum. Note the past tense   We had him PTS last October after struggling for 10 months with biting issues. I was too upset to post after that.  He mostly bit my husband but also my dad, a friend and people in the kennels. We worked with a good behaviourist, Emily Blackwell of Bristol Uni Vet school, who did the Channel 4 dogs behavioural programme, the name of which I forget.   

We'd got that at home we could largely manage him but found that life constricted hugely as we found more and more things we couldn't do because of him and fear he would bite someone. He found lots of things stressful and would react very quickly. Like Archie we never had a warning growl. It was just a very brief freeze then bite. Even Emily commented that he was very subtle in his communications. Odd things could be a trigger. Bizarrely, putting his food bowl down would sometimes provoke him though he wasn't bothered by us being around while he was eating.  We couldn't pick him up, hold him by the collar, bath him, put on his equafleece, he sometimes reacted when we were taking off either his lead or collar though was fine when we put them on. The list of triggers just kept growing month on month.

Finally, one day when we were all on the floor putting a desk together, Madoc rolled on his back all smiley and wriggly. We both thought he wanted a tummy tickle. Ian turned and went to reach toward him and Madoc jumped up and gave him a deep bite on the shoulder. Neither of us saw it coming and at that point decided enough was enough. He was just too unpredictable to be safe.  No rescue would take a dog that bites.  They've got enough lovely friendly dogs they struggle to rehome as it is.

It was a heartbreaking decision. I loved him to bits. He was a lovely, bright intelligent dog that I felt a real connection to but we couldn't go on living as we were and we couldn't risk other people's safety.  I think if we'd had children living in the house we'd have reached the same conclusion earlier.

Anyway that's Madoc's story. I suspect it's what you didn't want to hear.  I've no advice for you I'm afraid. You've got to do what is right for you and your family, having taken appropriate behavioural advice from the experts.  Hugs to you and the family

Sorry this is so long everyone but I thought it was important to be public about it

[Mudmagnets]

So sorry to read about Madoc, it really breaks your heart when you know that there is a more tender side - but for everyone's safety have to do what is best.

[Helen]

Just looked at symptoms for HYPERthyroidism (rare) as opposed to HYPOthyroidism (common) and he does have a few of those including weight loss (or difficulty maintaining weight)/increased appetite and eating quickly/frequent weeing/hyper or overactive/restlessness and coat dullness.

Of course, I may just be clutching at straws as it's a rare condition but with my luck, I'd not be surprised 

It's worth investigating and even contacting Dr Jean Dodds for advice.

[DeeDee]

So sorry to read about your growing problems with Archie. You must be in pieces and so torn. I have no advice as, ultimately, it will be your advised decision. BUT, if it were me, I would put my children's safety first, no matter how much I adored my dog. It seems it is Archie's unpredictability which is the problem and makes things so difficult to handle.

Sending you loads of cyber hugs.
    Diana xx

PS I really admire all the hard work you have put already training Archie.

[Geordietyke]

Thank you ElvieMogs for replying.  Poor Madoc's behaviour sounds so similar in places to Archie's.  In fact, as you listed the growing problems he had, it reminded me that Archie too started grumbling/growling a few months back when I put his collar/lead on - something he's never done before, in fact he always sat nicely waiting for it to go on.  He's also started grumbling about the Equafleece and being towelled down as well as grooming, which hubby can't do any of it now, and I can only gently manage a small time on his ears.

I know exactly what you mean by no warning, just a brief "freeze" then strike.  It was exactly what he done on Friday, so subtle and too quick for me to react before he lunged. 

DeeDee - thanks for that    Yes, it is the unpredictability which is the problem.  If I didn't have children, I'd have probably not posted and just seen a behaviourist to try and work on it but I keep thinking about what might have happened had he struck her face.... If you don't have kids and haven't experienced a dog biting one of them, you really can't understand how gut wrenching and pulled in two directions you feel 

[ElvieMogs]

Thanks everyone. Leslie, we had problems with grooming too. He was ok with our groomer though I was petrified every time he went there. We had him cut very short all over, including ears so didn't have to do any grooming ourselves.  Our other issue was getting him in the car though it turned out he was car sick. Stugeron did the trick together with a ramp and sausages!  It was our only success.

Also remember it's not only your own children you have to think about. Can you shut Archie away if they have friends to visit?  We never could with Madoc, he was distraught if he was shut in another room. We never succeeded using a crate with him and he ended up sleeping in our bedroom as he kept us awake for months when we persisted in leaving him in the kitchen overnight. Anyway I digress. Archie must be kept away or the children can't have friends around

Finally, how did we feel in the morning after losing Madoc?......relief!  There was sadness but no guilt or regrets, just relief and a sense of freedom. We definitely did the right thing.  We still have Nefyn who's 2 now and an absolute delight. She fills every day with joy and we've finally realised what everyone on COL means when they talk of their loving, crazy Cockers

[nigec]

Is his eyesight ok?
We had a Staffie cross that would lash out for no obvious reason and it turned out she was going blind, my life was hell, she used to sleep under the bed and if I reached down for a book or something she'd attack
She had some vision as she wasn't walking into things or tripping but I don't think she could make out faces
Sadly we had to get her put down as she had a couple of goes at the grandson, but she was a lot older than Archie

If its something that has escalated in a short time I'd be asking a vet to check, Ollie was a great little dog and friendly but in her later years changed dramatically, she also became very protective of the wife

[Archie bean]

Oh Lesley, I'm so so sorry to read this. You have had soooo many struggles with Archie and worked so tirelessly to overcome them. I am not qualified to offer any advice. My own Archies issues were so different and his triggers so clear. Plus I have no kids.
You obviously can't go on like this. Your children, their friends, your OH and visitors all need to be safe. His behaviour seems to suggest that Archie isn't feeling secure either so he may need the situation to end too. Don't be afraid to clutch at straws though. If there is something not right and it can be addressed then it's worth pursuing. Even if you pass that information on to a rescue.

Sending both you and ElvieMogs masses of 

[Ben's mum]

So sorry to read this 
apart from the health things the others have suggested my very first port of call would be Top Barks, he is not that far from you. He has vast experience of spaniels and I seem to remember one of his rescue boys was due to be pts because of issues, that he was able to resolve with his experience and knowledge.

My Harry sounds quite similar to your Archie, however he was a rescue so we don't know what he went through before he came to us. He has bitten me quite badly on more than one occasion and would again if the circumstances were right, however we don't have children so it is much easier for us, but living with a bitey dog is possible with some changes, but as I say with no children around it is not as challenging for us

really hope you can find some answers for you all xx

[Redked]

I am so sorry you are going through this. It must be such a difficult situation but if you fear for the safety of your children and others then there really is no other option. As you have said, you feel torn in 2; you love Archie so much and don't want to give up on him but you know that you can no longer trust him around certain people. If he had attacked your daughter's face, or one of her friends, you would never forgive yourself.

I think the fact that your OH says you can deal with it is probably making it harder for you and it would be great if you could work around Archie but you really do have to put safety of your children (and visiting children) first.  Unfortunately, unless you can keep Archie away from them at all times then their safety has to be prioritised, especially under current laws.

It really is heartbreaking to read about this after everything you've been through. Sending all the best to you and your family xxx

[JennyBee]

So deeply sorry to read this, Lesley.

I've written before about Barney, my previous cocker. He had serious problems, and would attack without any prior signs, usually for little reason. I would make sure your vet does a full and thorough check of Archie, including his eyes and ears. Barney had eye issues, which although I don't think were the reason behind his problems, were a definite factor.

It's an incredibly difficult decision to have to make. We kept Barney, and 'managed' his behaviour. We learned his triggers and had to be extremely careful to ensure no one else was at any risk. There were no children around - if there were, his problems were so extensive there's no way he'd have been able to stay. It wasn't easy. I do think these sorts of problems can be dealt with in the right circumstances, but it will take a lot of hard work and with children around, you have to decide if it's worth the risk. Any trust may never be regained.

For now, I would limit all interactions with your children and see what your vet says. I also agree about contacting Top Barks for advice.

I really do feel for you, it's such a horrible position to be in, especially after all you've been though already. Massive hugs

[Jane S]

apart from the health things the others have suggested my very first port of call would be Top Barks, he is not that far from you. He has vast experience of spaniels and I seem to remember one of his rescue boys was due to be pts because of issues, that he was able to resolve with his experience and knowledge.

Very good suggestion - here's Mark's website: http://www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk/

Really sorry to hear about the problems you're experiencing (and also so sorry to hear about Madoc, Elviemogs) - do inform your breeder as if I was the breeder, I'd want to know (and if you do decide you can't keep Archie, your breeder should help too)

[Geordietyke]

Thanks everyone.  Been to vets this morning.  Spent half an hour chatting to her and having Archie physically checked out.  She said there was nothing wrong with him in that respect but didn't suggest there was any need for further tests to be done at this point.

She agreed that I would have to carefully manage the situation with the children and get someone in ASAP if I wanted to keep him although she agreed that there was no guarantees if him not biting again.

I have also emailed my breeder but haven't received a reply yet.

I have emailed her suggested trainer, who lives in the same town as me and ironically did my KC Puppy Training course so am awaiting a response from him.  Will keep you updated, thanks again everyone for your good wishes.  Lesley

[rednblack]

Really sorry to read about the problems you're having with Archie, especially after you have worked so hard with him. 
 
i was just wondering, from your description of his behaviour if there may be a neurological cause, especially as he is reacting to his ears and neck being touched.  Might there be something pressing on his upper spinal cord or brain to cause these problems?
 
Best wishes, what ever you decide to do.