Archie bitten daughter again - out of options

[henryjack1dogs]

Please contact Many Tears,  I am a believer sometimes our families can make  or break our dogs. My boys aged 4 and 5 are hyper, my previous boys were less so - no children, I have three young lively children who respect the dogs but I have to reaffirm behaviour sometimes.   I do believe they pick up on our crazy lives.

I hope things can take a different path.

[Geordietyke]

I've emailed Many Tears to ask for advice.  My daughters are 10 and 11 and every time Archie has gone for daughter, it has been when she was standing or sitting quietly, the last time was when we were chatting on the settee, he'd been lying down nearby for 15 or so minutes and he just looked up, clocked her and lunged....  However, they can't even giggle or chat together without him going mental and circling/barking.

[julie1]

I'm so sorry for you all 
I don't think you really have a choice................you have given him so many chances, please remember it can happen with any dog not just a cocker.   I'm sure your family don't really want another dog anyway, it will put your daughter off for the rest of her life.

[tenaille]

So sorry to hear this. Your experiences are similar to our own, which we managed until very recently to live with by calming supplements.  Not sure if its his current bad lipfold infection that suddenly made him much worse again but he has bitten my OH again, thats twice in little more than a month, each time the circumstances just as you describe (lying quietly on the floor and suddenly leaping at OHs bare feet biting and snarling). We too feel just about at the end of the road.
Our vet has now put him on Prozac and he will have his lipfold operation in a couple of weeks.  We feel that this is now everything we can do for him and may soon have to make that final heartbreaking decision.  Like yourself we lost our previous cocker traumatically and Beau is his much loved successor.
In the end your family and sanity have to come first.

[Pearly]

I'm really sorry but if Di at CAESSR has said they would not be able to rehome Archie then none of the other rescues will either.  They cannot afford to from a risk point of view or their liability insurance.

You could try to rehome him yourself but you will just be passing on a problem.  The only options you have are to work with him and a behaviourist or take him to the Vets; Vets will not put a healthy dog down unless here is good reason so I would suggest speaking to your vet and exploring what options you have medically before making a final decision.

Having thought about this a bit more, 15 minutes for a dog who thinks he's human and expects cuddles and attention....is a very long time.  I know the other cocker I've previously mentioned had some very real insecurities but also gave very subtle warnings, so subtle that the Behaviourist found it hard to see them before the dog reacted    Does Archie warn at all?

You clearly want the best for Archie so I'm finding it hard to understand why you allow him to be in a situation where he can behave the way he has been? If you know he has a problem with one daughter in particular why was he in the same room as you all?

I now have two dogs and mostly live in the kitchen with them!  On occasion I do go through to the living room but they stay in the kitchen - Pearl and Coral are both very cuddly dogs and like nothing better than being on the settee but I'm sorry, sometimes I need my own space - this has been the "house rules" since Coral came home at end March, Pearl who is an anxious dog and does "react" quickly, has been much calmer and also less grumpy on the COL walks we've been on.  I've got to be honest and say she prefers being a dog to a pet.

Are you really sticking to all the advice your Behaviourist gave you or is it time to have another consultation with them?

I'm very disappointed on your behalf that Archies Breeder won't take him back - I thought that's what responsible Breeders do 

Truly hope Archie can turn that corner we all want him to xx

[Karma]

Sending love and hugs.

I can't begin to imagine how you are feeling right now and really hope some miricle solution presents itself.
If this isn't the case, and the only safe option is to visit the vet, I truly hope in time you will be able to look back on your time with Archie, knowing you put everything you could into him. 

[Geordietyke]

Many Tears response was to take him along for 3 very long bike rides a day, enrol him in obedience classes and do agility.  (I would assume that before any agility was attempted, he'd have to be reasonably obedient first).  That seems to sort biters out.....  She also said that no-one wants to take on a liability. 

I can't imagine where one would get the time to do all those things from however.   It is also tricky attending classes as I haven't always got childcare (hubby is now working 6, sometimes 7 days a week and is often late in on an evening or at meetings). 

Thank you Karma, I know that you can understand just how difficult it is trying to manage dog and children.  I really can't describe the comings and goings of family life, how kids are up and down stairs/in and out of doors etc, to people without children.  They can't seem to understand how I can't keep them separated.  I've already gated bottom of stairs and use puppy panels to stop Archie from going in the kitchen when we eat, the children also have panels at their bedroom doors.  It is made more difficult by the fact that Archie detests his crate and will howl, scream and bark for any length of time he is in it (be it 30 seconds or 30 minutes - non stop).  He will also at times wee/poo in it, something he done as a pup necessitating me abandoning crate training.  I brought it out again after the first attack but I can't have noise he makes every time I have to put him in it.

Our home life is so regimented and unnatural, no-one can dare make a sound for fear of setting him off - even the kids moving about upstairs sets him off barking and spinning.

How are we supposed to enjoy family time together with Archie?  Is he to be left when we go for days out (not that anyone would look after him, he's bitten my brother and SIL too when they looked after him last year).  That's not being part of a family for him....

I have stuck to the training plan since July but his behaviour has worsened.  It is not helped by the fact that he is incredibly difficult to whistle train (I'm also still following Top Barks' recall sticky) and he's unable to get off-lead exercise, apart from in the garden.

I took Archie to my vet back in early July, she recommended the trainer but also said that I'd have to weigh up the risk of having him around and may need to make a difficult decision at some point.

[CrazyCockerGang]

I don't know the full story just read this post, I personally wouldn't allow your dog around your children! He obviously has issues and your putting your children in a position they will never thank you for nor will your dog. I would provide a safe area your dog to sleep in away from the kids, not giving him free rein, restricting him to an area that you know he can be happy and stress free in and your children can do as they wish- possibly the kitchen/a crate (start crate training as if he's 8 weeks)  living arrangements need to be modified, your children should never be at risk of a bite in their own home! Sadly sounds like the dog rules the roost so to speak hence the current issues.
I hope you find someone suitable to take him.

[lescef]

It really does sound that you have no family life at all and that you have done your very best.
 Sorry if this has been asked already but has the vet  suggested other medications (if there are any) that may calm him down so you can work on changing his behaviour or is medication not appropriate in his case?

[Bluepaula]

Hi
Really sorry to hear how difficult it all is! Before we got Dixie we visited Dogs trust homes ( all over UK) they did have dogs that had bitten and were rehousing them. Please don't put him down please take him to dogs trust
Hope that helps!

[Geordietyke]

I don't know the full story just read this post, I personally wouldn't allow your dog around your children! He obviously has issues and your putting your children in a position they will never thank you for nor will your dog. I would provide a safe area your dog to sleep in away from the kids, not giving him free rein, restricting him to an area that you know he can be happy and stress free in and your children can do as they wish- possibly the kitchen/a crate (start crate training as if he's 8 weeks)  living arrangements need to be modified, your children should never be at risk of a bite in their own home! Sadly sounds like the dog rules the roost so to speak hence the current issues.
I hope you find someone suitable to take him.

He doesn't have "free rein", he is in the living room with me, along the hall and into the kitchen when I go.  We have panels coming out of our ears here, stopping him from going upstairs/in other downstairs rooms but I can't tell when one of them may want come downstairs and I'm in the kitchen with him or to come into the living room.  I did crate train from 8 weeks old and he spent his time screaming, barking and howling, as well as toileting in there so had to abandon it.  I've brought it out again and he still does the same thing (I know how to crate train, I done it with my previous cocker). 

What is the point of having a family dog if he has to be kept away at all times.  What happens when we want to go out together?  It's just not normal for any of us and I can guarantee if I start limiting where he can go further, he'll be even more stressed out as he detests not being by my side. 

He doesn't rule the roost but we are seriously limited in our family life because of him.  We make him sit before going out of a doorway (me first), he walks to heel, has loose lead time, then heel time as advised by our trainer and isn't allowed on furniture.  However, he is incredibly stubborn and hyper and because of this, when he starts his hyper spinning and barking, no command will get him to stop (even the trainer couldn't offer advice on this one, said he'd eventually calm down if I followed his training plan - he hasn't).

lescef - the vet didn't offer any suggestions regarding medication, I do have him on calming supplement powders but as yet, they don't seem to be working.

I will contact Dog's Trust but would be sceptical given his behaviour, they'd be happy to rehome him, I'd feel awful if he bit someone else, it's bad enough dealing with the guilt I have over my daughter.

[Deb H]

I'm so sorry to read this. You have done everything in your power to solve this problem I really feel for you and your family. If I didn't have two youngster I would have offered to take him on as we don't have any kids and my cockers bless em just accept whoever comes through the door. We had this issue ourselves with Henry our black cocker who we lost to old age last year. He would just change in an instant it was like having a schizophrenic dog. As I said we didn't have kids so we could manage him and we learnt to read the signs. He had his own space under the stairs with a baby gate when he wanted to be away from it all and we never allowed him to be around strangers. The only person he never growled at or tried to bite was my MIL he adored her. He was the most affectionate loving dog and gave the best cuddles but just had a split personality. Sending you massive hugs and hoping for a miracle.

[Geordietyke]

Thank you    I've said time and time again, if it were just me and hubby, I'm sure I'd be able to better and perhaps more effectively manage the situation but with kids in the mix, it isn't so cut and dried.  I've spent all day online trying to find reasons for his behaviour and my mind is shot to pieces 

[CrazyCockerGang]

Sounds like he needed more training as a youngster (throwing the towel in re crate training, due to noise, mess etc) I can only imagine how subsequent training went! He isn't a family dog! He is a dog that cannot be trusted at this point around your family! Why push the situation, you may be with him in the areas he's aloud but it's made no difference to the biting incidents or they wouldn't of occurred!
If you wAnt him to sleep in a room with your children I'd put a long line on him so he can't reach them at any point or muzzle. If he bites the wrong person he will be PTS and I really doubt it's his fault.

[Mudmagnets]

Sounds like he needed more training as a youngster (throwing the towel in re crate training, due to noise, mess etc) I can only imagine how subsequent training went! He isn't a family dog! He is a dog that cannot be trusted at this point around your family! Why push the situation, you may be with him in the areas he's aloud but it's made no difference to the biting incidents or they wouldn't of occurred!
If you wAnt him to sleep in a room with your children I'd put a long line on him so he can't reach them at any point or muzzle. If he bites the wrong person he will be PTS and I really doubt it's his fault.

I'm sorry but I think your posts are incredibly harsh and insensitive. This lady is obviously trying her best to find a solution and really does not deserve this kind of comment, for those of us who have followed the posts, we do know the problems she has had with Archie. I realise of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but there is no real need to be quite so hard If you are interested you will find the original thread interesting, in Behaviour and Training it is titled 'I may be losing Archie' it outlines Archie's problems more fully and the actions that the O.P has tried to remedy the situation.