Campbell test

[PennyB]

I agree with what you say, cocker specific research had a massive uptake during the 1980's from the bad publicity the breed recieved in the popular press. Dr Roger Mugford cited in Bruce Fogles "Pets and their People" noted that cocker spaniels were the second most frequent breed of dog brought in for "behavioural" problems. Dr Fogle hypothessised at the time that lots of these dogs were understimulated and living in luxurious prisons.

But thats what others were saying that other things are at play here such as how owners handle the dogs (the nurture element). Far too many people get cockers as they think they are lapdogs and so like any intelligent dog they can/may react against the environement they find themselves in. As always the owner is at fault here and not the dog. I too think I would behave badly if I were 'understimulated and living in luxurious prisons'.

What statistics on colour in cockers do is only make some owners give up once dog shows any sort of behaviour problems and just label the dog as bad and so look no further into helping the dog when sometimes it just needs a calm confident person to turn them around and give them the boundaries and stimulation they need.

[Elisa]

Im kind of getting a bit bored with all this solid/particolour rage/aggression (and now its male v female  ) stereotyping 

Its been done to death on this forum already.

I have a red, un-neutered, male cocker    I'm also blonde, orginally from Essex, and when I had my first child was unmarried, so no hope for me or the dog!!!! 

[Cob-Web]

If I knew now what I knew then, then I would have a spayed particolour bitch.

How sad:(

I am a geneticist and statistician, but would never make a choice about a dog based on the kind of statistics you have been quoting, Phil - the methodology is far too flawed 

Cars, houses, white goods etc are "manufactured" to standard specifications - dogs  are living, breathing creatures that respond to their environment, and have emotions, feelings and "opinions" 

As I understand it Phil, you are "nearly" a psychologist. Are all psychology patients assessed and treated based solely on the statistical likelyhood of a personality type/disorder occuring in a person of their age/gender/hair colour, or is it more complex than that? If it is, why are dogs any different? You are right ,dogs haven't changed in 30 years, but our understanding of them has - otherwise, the techniques used then that I mentioned would still be recommneded today. IMO, it can be compared to the fact that we used to send little boys up chimneys - we now understand that this is physically and psychologically damaging for many children - just as some "traditional" dog training methods are now known to be to dogs 

While I fully relate to your desire to understand Sooty and what may have happened to him - please don't under-estimate the recommendations and advise you have been given by COLers. The danger with academic research is that you can find scientific papers that prove or disprove most theories - the advantage of COL is that many of the members have been actually dealing with these issues first hand for years; which, even as a scientist myself, I have higher regard for than all the scientific theories in the world 

[sarahp]

I have a red, un-neutered, male cocker    I'm also blonde, orginally from Essex, and when I had my first child was unmarried, so no hope for me or the dog!!!! 

 

Not sure we should let you back on the forum after that confession 

[sooty strikes back]

If I knew now what I knew then, then I would have a spayed particolour bitch.

How sad:(

I am a geneticist and statistician, but would never make a choice about a dog based on the kind of statistics you have been quoting, Phil - the methodology is far too flawed 

Cars, houses, white goods etc are "manufactured" to standard specifications - dogs  are living, breathing creatures that respond to their environment, and have emotions, feelings and "opinions" 

As I understand it Phil, you are "nearly" a psychologist. Are all psychology patients assessed and treated based solely on the statistical likelyhood of a personality type/disorder occuring in a person of their age/gender/hair colour, or is it more complex than that? If it is, why are dogs any different? You are right ,dogs haven't changed in 30 years, but our understanding of them has - otherwise, the techniques used then that I mentioned would still be recommneded today. IMO, it can be compared to the fact that we used to send little boys up chimneys - we now understand that this is physically and psychologically damaging for many children - just as some "traditional" dog training methods are now known to be to dogs 

While I fully relate to your desire to understand Sooty and what may have happened to him - please don't under-estimate the recommendations and advise you have been given by COLers. The danger with academic research is that you can find scientific papers that prove or disprove most theories - the advantage of COL is that many of the members have been actually dealing with these issues first hand for years; which, even as a scientist myself, I have higher regard for than all the scientific theories in the world 

The research quoted has been Quantative (looking at numbers and frequencies) which helps to give a forecast or base understanding of a subject. Qualitive is looking at individual cases. Every patient or self refering client is assessed as an individual.

And finally AT LEAST SOOTY DOESN'T EAT POO! 

[Cob-Web]

The research quoted has been Quantative (looking at numbers and frequencies) which helps to give a forecast or base understanding of a subject. Qualitive is looking at individual cases. Every patient or self refering client is assessed as an individual.

Yes, I know the difference - and I think you are deliberately missing the point.

Its good to hear all "human" clients are assessed as individuals -

If I knew now what I knew then, then I would have a spayed particolour bitch.

This suggests that you don't respect dogs enough to extend them the same courtesy 

[*Jay*]

 I could see an animal behavioursit except that everyday I go to a building that has at least 6 doctors well experienced in animal behaviour and an extensive library of texts and scientific journals, without causing offence, it would be a bit like having a dog and barking myself!

Have any of these 6 doctors seen Sooty? Are you going to let them see Sooty? Or are you just going to read a couple of books and declare yourself an expert? Where aggression is a problem, it is recommended to seek professional help - that would be someone with years of training and experience, ie not you!! It is a very dangerous game you are playing here and one in which I hope Sooty does not suffer the consequences

[Mollycuddles]

 I could see an animal behavioursit except that everyday I go to a building that has at least 6 doctors well experienced in animal behaviour and an extensive library of texts and scientific journals, without causing offence, it would be a bit like having a dog and barking myself!

Have any of these 6 doctors seen Sooty? Are you going to let them see Sooty? Or are you just going to just read a couple of books and declare yourself an expert? Where aggression is a problem, it is recommended to seek professional help - that would be someone with years of training and experience, ie not you!! It is a very dangerous game you are playing here and one in which I hope Sooty does not suffer the consequences

I totally agree.....too much information in the wrong hands is dangerous.....leave it to the experts who have years of first hand knowledge......

[Colin]

Phil, I find your attitude to the members of this forum regretable. In the short time you have been a member you have seemed intent on winding people up and causing disharmony. Off the top of my head here are a few examples...

1. Complaining about the price of Cocker puppies

2. Admitting to opting for a rescue dog as it was a "bargain."

3. Insulting all cat lovers.

4. Informing us all that feeding our dogs goats milk would lead to them chasing goats.

5. "Wrestled" a half blind Cocker to the floor whilst wearing "anti-slash armour for knife attacks". Like that's going to teach a dog not to be food posessive.

6. Posted a tasteless poll about divorce - seemingly as a psychological experiment.

7.Ignored all advice about getting a professional behaviourist who could assess any problems Sooty may have and advise you of  the best way of dealing with them. (Money again ? )

8. Posted details of an out of date test - inappropriately suggesting puppy owners "play" with it to determine whether their pups suffer from "dominance aggression."

9. Attempted to use COL as a charity fundraiser for any future health treatment Sooty may need. ( Not wanting to spend your own money seems to be a recurring theme.)

10. Rather callously referring to Sooty as being on "death row" and possibly being "destroyed" at some future date. Wouldn't "put to sleep" be a kinder expression ?

Humans and dogs are different species - being an unqualified human psycholgist does not qualify you  in any way as a canine psychologist. As has been suggested many times before - please seek professional help for Sooty, your posts on here have shown you do not have sufficient knowledge or experience to deal with these problems yourself. Please also buy a copy of the "Culture Clash" to improve your own personal awareness of dogs and their behaviour patterns. A more understanding and less confrontational approach is likely to have the best chance of helping Sooty - similarly, a less confrontational approach to members of this forum may help you too. Unless of course confrontation is what you seek - in which case the banning wand is likely to be waved in your direction - which would be really sad given that there is so much useful advice available here.

[kookie]

I dont want to offend anyone, but this is getting tedious now, round and round, tit for tat. Ive formed my own opinion, but I'm keeping it to myself.

[Jane S]

I'm closing this thread now as it is going nowhere fast but before I do, for the record, Brenda Parmenter and her son are not and never have been Crufts judges -you can't believe everything you cut & paste from online news reports (not that their case had anything to do with this discussion)

Jane