Serious Aggression - Desperately need advice - updated

[Gordo]

But what have we done to her to make her like this?

I feel this is all our fault, mine especially as I've spent more time with her 

I've heard people say that once a dog has bitten, they will continue to do it as it 'works', but what are we supposed to do if she bites without warning?  Does this mean we've got an aggressive dog? And if we've got an aggressive dog now, will she always be classed as an aggressive dog, ie not letting her off the lead, having to muzzel her, etc? And what if, heaven forbid, she bites someone else?  It's bad enough when she bites us, but......?

[Ben's mum]

Just wanted to say, I'm so sorry you are going through this.  I have been where you are now, with Ben and struggled to make sense of his agression.

What I will say is that things have improved here vastly, I know Ben will bite me if I handle him wrong and I accept that as part of him (last month had a tetanus as one bite was quite deep ) and I choose to live with it because that is just one part of him and the rest of him is georgous    However we don't have children     and I really honestly do know what would have happened if we did, and Ben is six now and has calmed down considerably, but the first three years were 

I do hope you are able to find the help you need and that it all works out for you.  make sure you get good advice though

Good luck, thinking of you

[joanne_v]

You havent done ANYTHING intentional which is why its so hard to see whats going on without professional help but you have been doing something to cause her to react as she is. In my experience of fostering rehab dogs the vast majority of dogs which have bitten and been reactive in their previous (very loving) homes come into foster and are absolutely fine from the start or within a very short space of time purely because experienced fosterers are very good on understanding dog behaviour and body language and so the dogs learn to trust them very quickly. Its not an easy thing to learn and takes lots of practice (and making mistakes too) to be able to help 'aggressive' dogs. Try and remember that every dog is capable of biting, this is a natural and acceptable thing for a dog to do to another dog in certain situations but in a domestic environment obviously not something that should happen to their human family. Everything about a dogs behaviour (and every species on the planet) is designed to promote survival so it is not a good survival tactic to bite for no reason. Dogs bite to protect themselves and as a last resort. Because we as humans dont understand everything about how they interact with each other we often make millions of mistakes in interpreting their behaviour. Even experts (like David Appleby) will tell you they can always learn something new about dog behaviour.

[Top Barks]

You havent done ANYTHING intentional which is why its so hard to see whats going on without professional help but you have been doing something to cause her to react as she is. In my experience of fostering rehab dogs the vast majority of dogs which have bitten and been reactive in their previous (very loving) homes come into foster and are absolutely fine from the start or within a very short space of time purely because experienced fosterers are very good on understanding dog behaviour and body language and so the dogs learn to trust them very quickly. Its not an easy thing to learn and takes lots of practice (and making mistakes too) to be able to help 'aggressive' dogs. Try and remember that every dog is capable of biting, this is a natural and acceptable thing for a dog to do to another dog in certain situations but in a domestic environment obviously not something that should happen to their human family. Everything about a dogs behaviour (and every species on the planet) is designed to promote survival so it is not a good survival tactic to bite for no reason. Dogs bite to protect themselves and as a last resort. Because we as humans dont understand everything about how they interact with each other we often make millions of mistakes in interpreting their behaviour. Even experts (like David Appleby) will tell you they can always learn something new about dog behaviour.

Excellent post Jo!

[SkyeSue]

I don't know if I'm talking out of turn here, but  my understanding is that a dog will always give a warning before it actually bites, the problem is, we often don't recognise the warnings. That is not to say that you have failed your dog in any way, as Jo says, it takes a lot of understanding and experience of dog behaviour and body language to recognise the warnings. I certainly wouldn't trust myself to be able to recognise pre-bite warnings and fortunately have never had to. I know I keep banging on about the book Bones would rain from the sky, but it really helped me to understand at least a little about dog agression. Also, I would imagine David would need to actually SEE an attack before he could begin to analyse what led up to it iyswim.
Anyway, this is just an opinion from a very inexperienced dog owner, so I hope I haven't got it all wrong 
I really do feel for you 

[mottersheadt]

Sorry to hear this, it must be very upsetting to have experienced this significant set back.  Looking at the whole picture, I feel that you should consider re-homing because you have not only you and your husband to think about but also your own future children and relatives.  It is not nice to be 'on pins' all the time as I was at the beginning with Molly. 

At the end of the day you must think about your own health and gain some comfort knowing that you have really tried so hard to improve behaviour.  Only you can make this decision and only when you feel the time is right - good luck with whatever you decide to do but my feelings are that you are now feeling quite desperate in your situation.

[cdpops]

But what have we done to her to make her like this?

I feel this is all our fault, mine especially as I've spent more time with her 

I've heard people say that once a dog has bitten, they will continue to do it as it 'works', but what are we supposed to do if she bites without warning?  Does this mean we've got an aggressive dog? And if we've got an aggressive dog now, will she always be classed as an aggressive dog, ie not letting her off the lead, having to muzzel her, etc? And what if, heaven forbid, she bites someone else?  It's bad enough when she bites us, but......?

I hope I have not scared you with my previous post. I feel I must redress the balance, Charlie used to bite on a daily basis sometimes several times a day,
he has not bitten for almost a year, although he has given us a few warnings that we have learned to recognise and respect. Charlies tail always drops between his legs and we know then to back off. He never has bitten a stranger  
My other comment is about a muzzle, they can be a very useful short term addition and not something you should dismiss,Lily wearing one may help in te short term.

[Helen]

Sorry to hear this, it must be very upsetting to have experienced this significant set back.  Looking at the whole picture, I feel that you should consider re-homing because you have not only you and your husband to think about but also your own future children and relatives.  It is not nice to be 'on pins' all the time as I was at the beginning with Molly. 

At the end of the day you must think about your own health and gain some comfort knowing that you have really tried so hard to improve behaviour.  Only you can make this decision and only when you feel the time is right - good luck with whatever you decide to do but my feelings are that you are now feeling quite desperate in your situation.

I too sense desperation in your posts at the moment and just want to say if you do decide to re-home (and there is no failure involved in that - sometimes it is the most selfless thing to do for your dog) there are very cocker savvy rescues out there to help 

[mum2milly]

No advice I'm afraid, just wanted to say that I'm thinking of you all.

Love Jo & Milly xx

[Gordo]

Thanks once again for all your words of support and advice.

I don't really know how I feel about it all today -- Lily seems back to her 'normal' self, but saying that I haven't tried to put her lead on.  She's got her longline on and has had it on all day as she keeps getting up onto the sofa.  Most of the time she jumps off as soon as one of us walks into the room, but if she's tired it's a nightmare getting her off, hence the longline.  Also, I've been able to fuss her around her collar and the lead today, so that has got to be a step in the right direction 

Hubby spoke to Hannah (vet) again today re her allergies and what we can do about them, and she's said the best course of treatment is injections every week for a few weeks and then once a month of the rest of her life.  Hubby said about her biting him yesterday and how we are feeling, and Hannah said that if she is itchy/scratchy this might make her aggressive    I'm not really sure what to think about this as my mum's dog has got to have these injections every month, but he's never aggressive (he's and 12 yr old arthritic, cantankerous retriever who was diagnosed with allergies at 5 and has NEVER been aggressive).  All this might explain why she's the way she is, but does it really excuse it?   

I honestly think all this originates from her undershot jaw and the pain that tooth caused her when her adult teeth came through (I've said this all along).  But now is her behaviour so ingrained that we won't be able to help her any more?  Is re-homing her our best option to give her a fresh start?  I know it won't be the easy option, (who can talk about 'the easy option' when your talking about a dog that you love and can't imagine your life without  ) but will it be better for all of us?    I just don't know what to think/do anymore, but I do know one of us needs to talk to Lily's breeder tonight to say what has been going on - not a conversation either of us want to have

I'm sorry about all these long posts, but I find putting them down on paper, so to speak, helps formulate ideas in my head, and if anyone can give us their point of view, so much the better!

[spanielcrazy]

It's very hard isn't it 

All I can do is give you an example: I groom a young Newfoundland bitch who suddenly became very aggressive--I was away and one of the other groomers tried to groom her and she became quite nasty (very intimidating with a Newfie!) She came back for another try; another groomer had her and I heard her yelp and growl when they were putting her in the tub. I told her owner that I believed she was in pain and needed to go to the vet. Turns out she had a urinary tract infection.

She has been treated for the infectionand her behaviour is sooo much better, but now, 2 months later, she still anticipates pain (her flash point is her belly, where her bladder is) but is learning that it does not hurt. This whole thing took around 5-6 months to play out, and she was probably hurting for longer than that, so it is going to take time for her to learn that she doesn't hurt anymore; that the things that used to hurt don't hurt. That will all happen on her schedule, not ours.


Only you and your family can make the decision to whether or not you want to continue to work with her. You've done a super job with her and come a long way; setbacks are to be expected unfortunately; only you can decide if you wish to deal with them. Rehoming may be your best option if you don't feel you can cope. and perhaps there is a more suitable cocker in your future 

[BabyB]

Perhaps she's associating the lead with a time from when her tooth was sore??
Hence this is a trigger ??

Morgan has the auto-immune for Pyoderma, and this helps keep any itching and or ittitation down.

[fifer]

Only you and your family can make the decision to whether or not you want to continue to work with her. You've done a super job with her and come a long way; setbacks are to be expected unfortunately; only you can decide if you wish to deal with them. Rehoming may be your best option if you don't feel you can cope. and perhaps there is a more suitable cocker in your future 

I couldn't have put it better.  I have just caught up with the last couple of pages and my heart goes out to you.  You have tried so hard, perhaps too hard?  I can't really explain this very well, but dogs are dogs, your family life is paramount and Lily has to fit in with that.  If that sounds harsh I'm sorry but dogs are not "furbabies" even if we call them that, love them though we do, they are not human they are animals.  No one could possibly criticise you for not trying; I thought you had found the cause with the tooth so I was saddened to see the new posts.

Please do not see this as failure, it is not.  Good luck in what ever decision you make.

[chasingbirds]

Do you have a local kennel that you trust ? We had very similar issues and found a couple of days breathing space were needed in order to be best decide what to do. It sound to me like you need a rest.

[daisy do]

As you know I have been going through the same thing as you and you feel out of your depth and alone as to try to understand how to read the situation that triggers things off the dog you love is trying to tell you something that they are not happy with but unless you have someone with you 24 7 who knows these things it is hard.

when it affects your health that is awful I know how you feel as I made that dredful decision with Daisy and then comes the feeling of guilt and no matter how much you tried you still feel BAD but as with the outcome with Daisy so far, as said in a previous post they know how to read dogs behavior and I had to think as you must what is best for Lily and for you it is not easy  I am thinking of you