Urgent help

[black taz]

i think you have to listen to your dogs.  I know I can take any food off Taz irrelevant of what it is - but TBH its rare that I do.  The same with Kira, except a fresh bone and the only time i went to take one away she growled at me (it was more of a groan), so i went and fetched a piece of cheese (her favourite).  now if i have given her a bone, i don't even approach her, i call her to me to give her something else if i think she has had enough. 

Taz on the otherhand does pinch socks etc, but i find the best solution to this is sit on the floor and he will bring it to me, then he gets rewarded playing tuggy with a teddy - he usually does it to get attention to play with him.  Both will "give" but depending on what they have the reward differs.

Its really important to have a good "give" and/or "leave" command.

[cdpops]

I have never had a puppy, but Charlie came to me with serious resource guarding issues, and a lack of trust in everybody and everything.
I was told by a behaviourist to build his trust by getting him to "give" objects that held little value, when he gives that thing he gets a treat and the thing back, so it's a win win for the dog! Eventually build up to objects that have higher values. After all this time, if Charlie gets a bone, or something else of high value, he is given it in the garden and left with it, I would never try to take it, but he gives toys etc(most of the time) with ease now.
For socks etc I have taught Charlie "in the box" if he pinches them I get him to drop them in the wash basket, again I started this with low value items and worked my way up to higher valued goods.
I hope that helps a little

[Karma]

Pilki - please don't get distracted by people telling you you should be able to take things away from your dog, or that they can do it with their dog without problems... the fact is you have a dog who is exhibiting guarding tendencies - the (oft-repeated) advice that you should take things away from your pup to teach them that you are entitled to is dangerous... yes, some dogs will tolerate this and it won't cause a problem... however, as you have discovered, some dogs won't tolerate this and it can and does cause guarding issues in some dogs.  

Taking valuable items, rewarding with a mega treat, and then returning the valuable item is a good way to condition a pup to letting their owner take things from them, and is useful as a safety measure in case they get something dangerous, especially if you put the "give" on command, so that you can then ask an adult dog to give you anything... but simply taking things away erodes trust and can (and repeatedly does) lead to guarding issues.  Taking things away from a dog who is already guarding will result in an escalation of guarding behaviour.  As other posters have mentioned, you can begin to work towards this by asking your dog to give low value items in return for a high value treat and the original item back, but do take baby steps.

I am talking from experience with a dog who guards from other dogs, and could easily have developed guarding issues to humans also (she can be reluctant to "give" and I certainly can't just "take" things from her - but I can encourage her to give me most things, and we swap items if needbe).  She trusts me enough to allow me to have removed a bone that was wedged across her palate - if I had taken a "I should be able to take things" approach with her, she would have serious guarding issues right now and certainly wouldn't have let me do that.  The work I have done with her has been in conjunction with trained professionals, not just people's opinions on how they think dogs should behave.  These are opinions from experienced and respected behaviourists, backed up (and interpreted) by my personal experience in dealing with similar issues.

If you'd rather not just take my word, I would recommend this page - http://dogtrainer.quickanddirtytips.com/resource-guarding-dog.aspx

And, just to clarify, tuggy is NOT taking something away from a pup/dog.... it is engaging them in play... but then I let my dog win at tuggy, so it's even more rewarding for her...  

As far as the stealing stuff goes - take a look at this page - http://dogscouts.org/Bad_Dog_Retrieve.html - for advice on how to turn this around.  

[SteveB]

I got to agree with Chris. We are exactly the same.
My worry would be is if it is growling over a bone what next will it growl at you for
I do believe in our household there is a distinct pecking order. The same as all pack animals you have a dominant female and male (Andrea and I )and then you have the dogs. In 30 plus years of dog owning I can honestly say I have never had one of my own dogs growl at me. Like I said before maybe I am lucky  

[SteveB]

Hi Karma
One thing we also will not do with a working Cocker is play tuggy as you can end up with a hard mouth dog. From an early age we rewarded for giving up the toy and now they do willingly. Yes we have sock and knicker thieves and they give them up easilly as well.  But we always praise.

[Karma]

I got to agree with Chris. We are exactly the same.
My worry would be is if it is growling over a bone what next will it growl at you for
I do believe in our household there is a distinct pecking order. The same as all pack animals you have a dominant female and male (Andrea and I )and then you have the dogs. In 30 plus years of dog owning I can honestly say I have never had one of my own dogs growl at me. Like I said before maybe I am lucky  

I would say you are very lucky...
So what would you do if a dog growled at you?  

As far as tuggy goes,  a) it's completely off-topic for this thread (I was simply correcting misinformation that playing tuggy was the same as taking things away from a pup) b) if done sensibly doesn't (in the experience of the dog training school I go to) create a hard-mouthed dog and c) I'm not telling you you have to play tuggy with your working dogs...    

[Karma]

Another good article on resource guarding...

http://www.scallywagsdogs.com/Images%202010/Understanding%20and%20preventing%20food%20guarding.pdf

[Helen]

Hi Karma
One thing we also will not do with a working Cocker is play tuggy as you can end up with a hard mouth dog. From an early age we rewarded for giving up the toy and now they do willingly. Yes we have sock and knicker thieves and they give them up easilly as well.  But we always praise.

Off topic but I have to say - we have a dog that enjoys plays tuggy with one specific toy and he's been let do that since a pup.  He is a working dog - he has a very soft mouth when he's out working and will present anything without hesitation.

Yes it's recommended that they don't play tuggy but if your dog is intelligent it does and can differentiate between 1 toy and game/dummies 

Back on topic - I don't think comments about being able to take anything from your dogs on this thread is helpful to the OP when they're trying to stop a guarding issue before it starts. 

I can say you've been lucky in that your dogs don't guard - I am lucky too but many others have dogs that will be possessive and this need a completely different approach as Karma has already said.

[seaangler]

Sorry i said i was not going to post But Karma just reminded me of this..as to what kalma has said..That is very usefull for any one and there dog...

Quote...She trusts me enough to allow me to have removed a bone that was wedged across her palate .

As any would knows if for any reason and it happen to me and could well happen to any one else on C.O.L

It could happen like it did with me not so long ago..And god forbid if its happen to any ones dog while out(like Kalma has said) to remove not a bone but part of an old branch..My dog as well as other will nibble the bark of old branches and stred them up...There is nutrance in bark that all dogs like eating it and the  insets in the bark....One day in the woods are Peggy came back all of a fluster she would not settle kept running around and wiping her mouth along the ground...She would not let me catch her at first.. but i did my who's the master kinda voice(being the Alfa and all that)

She came to me still not saying any thing just whimpering in a sad tone...You know as to your own dog reacts at times...

Any way i looked at her and i manage to open her mouth to see part of the bark stuck in her upper pallet stuck between her teeth...She would shake her head at first but she let me pull the fending bark out her mouth...I almost cryed after.... she just lick me on the hand...Just as my golden retriever jenny did some Years ago when i held her paw as the vet injected her to be put to sleep..

So if your selves ever get in perdiclument with your dog when you are miles away from any ware and be able to exsrat an offending object out your pets mouth all well and good...Some dogs would run a mile as they can feel some thing is hurting them they do not know what to do..its alien to them they just go berserk...just think first...as to what you would do...And not to think that your dog may bite you trying to remove and object from its mouth...

Its like i NEVER let my dogs chase after sticks..its only until you see what happens in reality when a dog come charging back...Oh look mummy i bringing this stick back so you can throw it again i am a good dog.....(sorry i have to say to this)...Until that so called stick that you and your dog are having so much fun with DIGS INTO THE GROUND and your dog is yellping out in such pain and you are miles away from your nearest vet...just think first that stick is not so much fun after all...

A rubber yellow some 18 inches long stick costing 12 pounds from most pet shops it will float it will not rot and most of all it will not HURT your dog....is best to use...they sell them at crufths dog show on offer last year...

.

[SteveB]

I would say you are very lucky...
So what would you do if a dog growled at you?  

I would ignore it and still take it and then return it praising them and continue to do so. The dog would eventually realise you are not taking it away for ever etc

Surely if it is not corrected and left to carry on the next time a child could be the one taking it  then what happens or are we saying that they can never be trusted.
Just my opinion

[Karma]

I would ignore it and still take it and then return it praising them and continue to do so. The dog would eventually realise you are not taking it away for ever etc

Surely if it is not corrected and left to carry on the next time a child could be the one taking it  then what happens or are we saying that they can never be trusted.
Just my opinion

Or the next time the dog would think "growling didn't work last time, so I'll have to be more clear... I'll have to bite" (Ok, they wouldn't think it through like that, but that can be the result).
And if the next time *is* a child, then it's a child being bitten.... 

I have a possessive cocker and a 15 month old child.  I can absolutely assure you that I wouldn't just ignore a growl - but rather than "correcting" a growl (which is a dog's main way of communicating they are unhappy), I look to the reason for the growl and work with the dog to either learn another response or negate the need to growl.  If you ignore a growl and carry on regardless, it runs the risk of escalating the behaviour.  If you tell a dog off for growling it may stop - but at some point it may feel more threatened by something and, knowing growling was not a "safe" option for it, simply go straight to the bite. 

Your approach may well work for most dogs - as it is combined with praise for giving up the item and giving it back - but for a dog who is predisposed to guarding (either early bad experiences, poor temperament or whatever) it could result in a serious resource guarding issue being created.

This post explains it better than I can (especially with said 15 month old trying to help type!!!  )
http://dogtrainer.quickanddirtytips.com/dog-growls-snaps.aspx

[seaangler]

Pilki .....

With your dog at rest get him/her to sit in front of you....Rase your left hand let your dog sniff the front of your left hand ...reward with right hand and treat do this untill your dog exsepts what you are doing..So later you can just hold up your left hand and he will sniff at it....(hence a dog never bites the hand that feeds it true or not i do not know )

This will also work if your dog is on the sofa gurading it as you hold your left hand your dog should and hopefully just sniff at it rather than bite it...just try it and see what happens..can but try...

This was taken from  Victoria Stilwell show that is on Pick T.V every day from 2 till 3...

I have been trying this on are gemma and it works with my dog..She will also give me a high five as i put my the front of my hand up...This is a good training curve to teach your dog....

I have been trying as to what (Top Mark) does with his fieldy by crossing his front paws ..that is so cute

[Top Barks]

This thread really does prove to me that problems like this will not be solved on a forum, as you will get different opinions based on some sound theory and others based on personal experience. The truth is every dog is different, owners do things differently from an early age which can make a difference.
Yes i can take anything from my dogs because they trust me 100% and I know how they will react, but I certainly would not go into a clients house not knowing the dog who was growling and guarding and expect to be able to take the item back.
If people are going to give advice it has to be advice that is not going to get folks bitten, personal experience can not solve the issues of others as they are not in the Op's situation.
I really don't give out that much behavoural advice on any forum these days as I do not deem it appropriate without first seeing and assessing the dog.
I as in all cases such as this these days would advise the op, if she is worried to employ the services of a suitably qualified and experienced behavioral trainer to assess the dog and make appropriate suggestions.
In the mean time I recommend the problem is managed by denying access to the guarded items in the first place and under NO circumstances should they front the dog up and confront it.
With regards to tuggy, i have 3 cockers and a field spaniel who all play tuggy with a specific toy but when retrieving have perfectly soft mouths.
I guess if you work your dog on shoots then it is not something you would risk doing, but for the average working cocker living as a pet then i do not see any harm in such a game, OMG ,listen to me now, i seem to be speaking from experience.

[Top Barks]

I got to agree with Chris. We are exactly the same.
My worry would be is if it is growling over a bone what next will it growl at you for
I do believe in our household there is a distinct pecking order. The same as all pack animals you have a dominant female and male (Andrea and I )and then you have the dogs. In 30 plus years of dog owning I can honestly say I have never had one of my own dogs growl at me. Like I said before maybe I am lucky  

Alfie growls at me while I wipe his paws, do you think he is trying to be dominant? get one over on the Alpha? or is he just saying, hey dad that is really not nice? Is growling not a perfectly normal way of communicating for our canine family?
I just tell him to shut up and give him a big sloppy kiss (which probably reinforces the behaviour I'm sure) but I know my dog, I know my relationship with him. If a strange dog did this then I would be wary. How would you deal with a dog you didn't know growling at you out of interest?
Of course humans are dominant as we control resources and dogs can become dominant in certain situations, but this behaviour is not driven by dominance it is driven by the fear of losing a valued resource, if you want to talk about how packs live then it is quite common for lesser ranking individuals to guard from the breeding pair, true dominance is when you feed the offspring first, give up valued resources so the weaker in the group can survive, lead by example and build trust in your canine family.
We to often mistake a fearful dog for a dominant dog and that is because most folks do not have an in depth understanding of the two concepts.
can you tell I have a night off, rant over!

[seaangler]

Very good advise from Mark..

Also as mark says alfie growels when he wipe his paws....

Are gemma dos not growel she will mouth at you... I stop her from doing that..By turning it into a game and she kinda smiles when i rub down her paws from comeing out the wet...its like the bottom of are feet being touch(the same with the dog)..I towel her down and play hide and seek with the towel gemma loves it she no longer mouths but with her mouth open..As to her kinda laughing....if you know what i mean harry...

Also Some dogs growel for pleasure .. Rottweilers do....