Can't get anywhere near him when injured

[hoover]

I have posted a lot about Ollie, our nearly 3 year old cocker, in the past.  We have certainly had our challenges with aggression but for the most part, alongside training which has diminished a lot of his behaviour, we can control his environment and manage him.  He will never be a safe dog however. 

A real difficulty is when he is injured as nobody can get anywhere near him. This caused a real problem at the weekend when we were away with family at a holiday cottage.  It was pleasant enough for Ollie to spend most of his time outside and I gave him his toy food dispenser which his dinner was in.  He picked it up to play with it somewhere else and trod heavily through a very needly dead bush and obviously hurt his paws where needles had become embedded.  He limped away to his crate and from that point on we could not get anywhere near him to examine him or bring him indoors as he put on an extremely ferocious display. Calling to him in light voices to come and join us and throwing food at the entrance to the crate just served to make him angrier and more suspicious. We left him for a few hours and then went to try again - same response.  At this point we knew we had to leave him outside overnight and tried to zip up the crate so that he would be secure and not run off anywhere (cottage was on a farm with livestock in fields nearby).  He went into attack mode when anyone went near and bit me on the thumb pretty badly when I reached for the zip.  In the end we couldn't zip it and instead trapped the entrance with a very large blanket that 2 people held taught at a distance of 1m each from the crate.  Another 2 people with heavy shoes on trapped the bottom of the blanket under the crate and then we dragged it against a wall so that he could not get out.

Thankfully in the morning he seemed to have recovered very well and eased out the needles himself - we were unable to examine ourselves as he would have attacked but he was walking ok.

Anyway, my question is - what do we do about such a scenario in the future?  He is a complete nightmare when injured, we can't get anywhere near and just have to leave him to it.  Honestly, to get him on a lead I think we would have to lasso him from a distace of 3m. We would normally get a muzzle on him to take him to the vet but if he were in pain I don't think we would have any chance.

Has anyone else experienced this and how did you manage it?

[Digger]

Hi Hoover.
I just wanted to send you a hug really for being such a nice animal person to continue working with a dog with those kind of Issues in your life. It must be very stressful at times.
I did look after a dog with severe aggression issues towards people. She was not my dog- I had her for 3 months and did a lot of work with her massive insecurities, helping her to walk out more confidently, not be scared of everything she saw, taught her recall, tricks and how to play. She was such a brilliant and intelligent dog, but had such a deep set fear of people that with her new found confidence, she went from fearful aggressive to pro active aggressive and started protecting me and attacking anyone who came in the house-not a great outcome but what I did notice was that she didn't do it if there was another dog there.
I'm just wondering if you have more than one dog or if your dog is an only child. This one I looked after would behave very differently if there were other dogs with her. I think she was an underdog. Scary though she was, I think it was born out of a lack of confidence and not knowing what alternative behaviour to do.  If there were other dogs there, she would let them decide what happened. The minute they left the room it was like she was thinking oh no- now I'm in charge I don't know what to do. If in doubt, attack!
  I realise (assuming you only have the one dog) that just producing another one is not particularly practical but I wonder if you found yourself in a similar situation again if plunking a well balanced dog in the area with her would make any difference. Might be interesting to see if another dog has any affect on his behaviour anyway.
I think in case of emergency I would get myself one of those rspca noose sticks just so you can grab him if you need to.
I really feel for you. You love the dog but it's stress. Been there.
I probably haven't been been any help but I do wish you all the best.

[phoenix]

I always dreaded this scenario with Bob, but when he was ill and in pain I was able to muzzle him because he wasn’t moving much.
 With an injury in a healthy, upset dog,  maybe the rspca style dog catcher noose would work, and you can then drop a muzzle on from behind the ears. Once it’s over the nose, you’re ok if the little darling can’t go in reverse. Have it adjusted to fit prior to needing it because you need to be quick.  Often they calm down straight away with it on. They are so frightened when they are in pain. I know you have been working so hard with him.
Wrapping in a beach towel can be a help for moving them, and covering their eyes with it can stop them panicking.
I expect vets see this reaction all the time, and can give you advice. I really feel for you, having had people misunderstand Bob so much. 

[hoover]

Thanks for the replies! Yes Ollie is an only dog, we had thought about getting another but were concerned in case it brought out the worst in his guarding behaviour again (which is mostly under control now apart from unpredictable scenarios).  Perhaps a larger, older, confident dog would be ok and help guide him better.  He's standoffish with most other dogs (apart from when he bumps into ones from his old puppy class - he adores all of them!)  I'm really intrigued by the idea of how he would be living with another dog but I think it would also be a real risk in case he turned into a bully with them - not the sort of thing you want to expose another dog to.

He's mostly ok with other people but unfortunately can change his mind pretty abruptly on occasion.  Still working on him keeping his muzzle on for longer periods of time and this will make interactions less stressful all round.

The RSPCA catcher sounds like the sort of thing that would work in these worst-case-scenarios, and yes I think he would calm down immediately as he would understand he was no longer controlling the situation.  I will look that up.  Our vets do the beach towel thing with him - or as they call it 'wrapping him up like a burrito'    It took 4 of them to give him kennel cough the last time.  Funny thing is we can now do anything with him when the situation is right- examine all his teeth, ears, get him to swap a bone for a treat etc.  But when he enters this other world there is no reaching him 

[Digger]

It must be really hard. Just to clarify- I wasn't suggesting you get another dog- just borrow one you know to be confident to put with him when he's stressed to see if it does have any effect.
 I did an experiment with that one I was looking after to see if she was guarding me/the house or if it was something else. I asked a couple who I often saw out walking with their two dogs to finish our walk by coming in my garden. That was fine. Closer to the house-fine. Sitting near the door having a cup of tea all together- no problem. We then all went in the house..No worries!? We sat there chatting for several minutes. Then I asked one of them to please take their dogs out. Within seconds my charge was stressed and growling at the remaining person. It just made me think that sometimes you think they are doing something for one reason and it may be another. She obviously couldn't cope with any sort of stress without a dog above her taking charge.
It is bizarre. We don't really know what's going on in their heads. 

[Archie bean]

I really feel for you. I have had exactly this in the past with Archie. Specifically when he has been physically sick. It's still the thing he will guard the most aggressively and I have no way of getting near him (or it to clean it up). The dog catcher sounds like it might work to get him from a to b in an emergency. I don't use a crate with Archie so if I need to I can usually turn his lead into a slip lead and get it over his head. He won't let me look at his feet if there's a problem with them either. I can sometimes divert his attention with treat and get a little look. Generally I ignore any issues and continue everything as normal so he doesn't see me showing any signs of interest.  I have a habit of wiping his feet every day with a small towel - even if they don't need it - just to make it a daily thing so if he has walked on something and picked up a problem I can check it then. He will usually come to me for "normal" activities if he doesn't think I am concerned about something. He is also much more likely to kick off if we are away from home (I don't take him away if I can avoid it. It's no fun for either of us). Ollie was probably more wound up because he was in a strange place and his crate was the only place  he felt safe.
Bizarrely Archie is an angelic cherub at the vets.. I have no idea why. Possibly because he spent a loot of time there when he was young after he had complications following castration. 
I hope his paw and your hand is OK. xx

[hoover]

Yes, wouldn't it be great to know what is going on in their heads!

Ollie sounds very like Archie - he also aggressively guards vomit, to the extent that now we just leave him to hoover it up again    If it's of a consistency that he's not prepared to eat he will still guard it.  We know now not to even look up if we hear the gulping noises preceeding sickness - it just makes him more stressed.  We can offer a full bowl of food and usually get him away that way. We definitely have to act as if everything is normal and show no signs of interest to injury as this just sets him off.  We have a trick now where if he is limping on a front paw we encourage him to lie on us for cuddles as usual and manage to angle a phone camera near his paw to get a photo to see what is going on.  Looking directly would cause too many problems.  Getting him into a habit of paw exams so that it becomes his normal routine sounds like a good idea.

I think Ollie was definitely more wound up because of the new space - it was a perfect storm - new setting, injury, food involved, retreat to crate which gave a space to guard, and night time when he was tired.

What can you do, eh?  Our lives revolve around him!  Thanks again for all the suggestions and understanding.

[Archie bean]

Yes, wouldn't it be great to know what is going on in their heads!

Ollie sounds very like Archie - he also aggressively guards vomit, to the extent that now we just leave him to hoover it up again    If it's of a consistency that he's not prepared to eat he will still guard it.  We know now not to even look up if we hear the gulping noises preceeding sickness - it just makes him more stressed.  We can offer a full bowl of food and usually get him away that way. We definitely have to act as if everything is normal and show no signs of interest to injury as this just sets him off.  We have a trick now where if he is limping on a front paw we encourage him to lie on us for cuddles as usual and manage to angle a phone camera near his paw to get a photo to see what is going on.  Looking directly would cause too many problems.  Getting him into a habit of paw exams so that it becomes his normal routine sounds like a good idea.

I think Ollie was definitely more wound up because of the new space - it was a perfect storm - new setting, injury, food involved, retreat to crate which gave a space to guard, and night time when he was tired.

What can you do, eh?  Our lives revolve around him!  Thanks again for all the suggestions and understanding.

Yup, that sounds exactly the same as Archie - and I handle it with exactly the same tricks! Good job we love them!