Billy - Is this fear aggression? How to tell?

[Colin]

I just wondered why you walk Billy on the lead?

He was off lead for the walk but when we saw any unknown dogs approaching we recalled Billy and put him on the lead until the dog had passed. I don't allow him to play with dogs he doesn't know until I and the other dogs owner is happy for them to play together. 

Perhaps this could be inadvertantly contributing to the problem. I know there are different schools of thought re how strange dogs should be allowed to greet each other - personally I think they do so much better without human attempts to control and interfere ( others would disagree though  ). By attaching a lead every time you see a dog, you could be sending the signal to Billy that all strange dogs are a threat, especially if you get a bit anxious when you see dogs approaching and hurriedly leash him - the fact that he is tethered also decreases his chances of communicating with the other dogs on an equal footing, he's immediately at a disadvantage if they remain offlead. One of the main calming signals that dogs use with each other when greeting for the first time is to approach each other in a curve to show they are friendly and no threat - leashing a dog stops them from being able to do this, especially in the kind of confined space that you describe.

[Jan/Billy]

Yeah you have a very good point there Colin, although I leash Billy well before the dog comes near so by the time the dog is upon us Billy has been on his lead for at least a minute but yes maybe he susses out why hes on the lead, especially as I always let him off as soon as the dog has passed.  Problem is with the way he is being at the moment I can't really trust allow him to greet dogs off lead in case he attacked them although I really believe its just growling I don't think he'd attack but i suppose you can never be certain.

Gosh it's so blloomin difficult to know what to do for the best    What would you suggest? 

[Colin]

There's people on here with a lot more experience and knowledge than me, so I'm wary of offering the wrong advice - but personally I'd take the plunge and let him meet other offlead dogs without leashing him and see if it makes a difference, it could take some of the tension out of the situation. Growling isn't necessarily an aggresssive act though, dogs often use it to avoid confrontation rather than start it - it's just their way of saying "back off please". Most dogs will happily accept this and just walk away, rather than take it as an invitation for a scrap.

[Jan/Billy]

OH doesn't agree with me putting him on the lead so much, he too says i shouldn't interfere. He'd rather see what happens and grab Billy if need be . I'm afraid of being one of those "irresponsible owners" we often discuss on here  .

Thanks Colin - much appreciated   

[Cob-Web]

Molo can be grumbly if dogs come into his space while he is on lead  He has never snapped, but occasionally, his grumble has led to a confrontation as the other dog takes offence 

So, although I recall and leash Molo when I see a leashed dog, or when I see someone recall their dog when they see me - I do allow Molo to greet off lead dogs which are off-lead.
If the other dog ignores him, I make sure that Molo doesn't approach by recalling him - but I try not to interfere if they spy each other and both want to get aquainted, and have had very few incidents as a result 

[Jan/Billy]

That sounds like a good plan Rachel - I'll allow him to greet off lead ones but not on lead ones. Although his recall is 99% hope his 1% doesn't let me down 

[Penel]

Isn't Billy muzzled when you are out with him anyway, because of his unpredictability with people ?  if that's the case I would let him meet other dogs off lead without worrying too much.

[Jan/Billy]

No he’s not Penel. I have bought one but things are going very slowly, haven’t yet got to the stage of him actually wearing it. I just put tasty stuff in it for now and let him lick it. Trying to get him to associate it with good things. The vet has muzzled him a few times ( not because he has ever growled but because his wounds were so sore). Billy absolutely hated it so when he sees the one I have him he walks off . I don’t want to have to just shove it on him as he’d hate it. I am trying to get him to accept it as a good thing but it’s more difficult than I though it was gonna be.

He doesn’t approach people it’s people approaching him that was the issue. He’s only ever off lead in rural places where people are few are far between and I ask them not to stroke him.

[Penel]

It's a good job he isn't a lurcher or greyhound then, cos if they have to be muzzled, you can't take months to get them used to it !!!  it still sounds to me as if you have a real issue with muzzles which is a shame as here is another situation where you could relax if he was wearing one...

[Jan/Billy]

It's a good job he isn't a lurcher or greyhound then, cos if they have to be muzzled, you can't take months to get them used to it !!! 

So how do you do it? Do you think I am being too soft with him  - You can tell me I won't be offended 

[Cob-Web]

I can only speak from my own experience (not Molo  ) - and that is to increase the time he wears it for a day or two, and then bite the bullet and take him out in it...........often the distractions outside help them "forget" the muzzle, and after a few days they begin to associate the muzzle with the walk (like a lead) and it becomes a positive experience 

[Penel]

Wot she said !
My lurchers wear muzzles when they race - its the rules, they have to - so I had no choice but to introduce them - I put it on for a few seconds, lots of praise, then take it off and give them a nice treat... some people put pate or something tasty in the end of the muzzle - I don't because I don't want to them to liken the muzzle to a kong !
I haven't met Billy so its hard to judge but I get the feeling you are a bit scared of him, and I think he probably knows it, so I guess yes you are a bit soft on him.  He is a small dog, don't let him push you around.  I don't mean you need to get aggressive with him, or physical, but stop letting him make the rules.  He should fit in with your lifestyle, not the other way around.  I am so not into the dominance stuff but I do firmly believe there has to be mutual respect and I fear Billy has none for you.

[Jan/Billy]

I get the feeling you are a bit scared of him,

Since the day he bit me yes, I do have some varying fear of him. I have lost what I had with him, it will never be the same

Ok I'll bite the bullet with the muzzle. One thing that does worry me is if he is off lead and muzzled and another dog attacks him ( rare I know but it is a possibility) then I have taken away his only form of self defence 

thanks again for your advice guys 

[Penel]

Jan he can still run away if he is off lead.  If he is ON lead and another dog attacks him then he cannot get away.  This is often the reason for a dog snapping whilst on the lead, they feel trapped.  A muzzle gives freedom for expression but safety.... it is highly unlikely that he will get attacked - but of course, sadly, always possible... I'm sorry for you that when he bit you he lost your trust.... hopefully one day it will be regained.  Thing is, if he can sense you are not "in charge" he will "take the mickey" putting it politely.  I hate putting human emotions on dogs but sometimes it is appropriate.

[Cob-Web]

Thing is, if he can sense you are not "in charge" he will "take the mickey" putting it politely.  I hate putting human emotions on dogs but sometimes it is appropriate.

I do think that dogs can sense fear/trepidation/indecision - and I am sure that it makes them feel insecure too, as they don't know why you feel like this; so maybe this is why they play up ?? 

It's really sad that you have lost your close relationship with Billy; it is over a year ago that he bit you isn't it? Did the behaviourist give you any explaination for that incident? Unless you can rationalise it and understand WHY he did it, then it will be very difficult to fully trust him again in any situation, iyswim