Excessive biting

[Rusty]

Hi guys

I am becoming increasingly worried about Rusty Biting :x We have tried everything lifting and putting him in the kitchen, :cry: I put him on my knee today to give him into trouble for biting my 12 year old and he caught me in the face, I immediately put him in the kitchen  :cry: I don,t think he gets why he is in there :cry: I am at breaking point of thinking we have done the wrong thing in getting a dog :cry: as he always seems to want to bite even my girls are getting fed up with it all  :cry:  we have been persevering but this is the worst day by far, just 20 mins ago he was acting like a rabid dog biting my hand time and time again I did not give him into trouble because he was growling and crying at the same time and I thought their was something wrong with him :cry: but now he is lying on my couch as if nothing has happened  we have tried everything in the book, perhaps this is normal behaviour but we find it excessive  :?  we can't even enjoy playing with him that he is biting :? it is as if he is always on attack mode. we have tried to accept that when Rusty is biting that's when he wants to play but it is quickly spoiled when he bits someone hard on the face..... Could anyone please please give us
some advice, we have tried what the breeder told us and the vet.....has anybody else ever had this bother with their cocker.... :?

Elle& Rusty :cry:                    

[Cob-Web]

Elle

So sorry to hear that you are still struggling with Rusty...

we have tried to accept that when Rusty is biting that's when he wants to play but it is quickly spoiled when he bits someone hard on the face.....  

I am reading this right, that you play with Rusty when he bites, but then it gets too hard? If so, you might want to change your tac, so that you initiate all play, and if he bites he gets no attention at all.

Have you got your copy of Gwen Bailey's - The Perfect Puppy yet? Page 115 covers persistent play biting in depth.

It is such a shame that you and your girls are not able to enjoy Rusty yet. Is he going to puppy classes?                    

[Rusty]

Hi, my wife posted this topic.

I have to agree with her that Rusty's biting is getting worse. He is really going for it when he bites now. I have tried my hardest with him, by being as patient as possible, but it really becomes a bit tedious when all he is doing is biting. I'm actually beginning to wonder if there is honestly something wrong with him, genetically.

We have tried talking to the breeder, but very dissapointingly, he really isn't interested. He's had his cash. I guess we were taken in by someone who disguised themselves as a breeder. We have had nothing but trouble trying to get his KC details from the breeder. He has consistently kept on stalling. Anyway, I suppose theres one born everyday.

So now I'm beginning to wonder if Rusty is what he was sold as?

Don't get me wrong, I love him to bits, but we just aren't having fun. Everyone else seems to enjoy their pups, obviously everyone has their problems, but Rusty just doesn't seem able to play without being ferocious. I ain't exagerating.

His toilet training is coming on good.    He is well loved and is given plenty of opportunity to play and socialize. We take him out plenty and try to stick to change the routine so he has a variation.

I suppose we are just feeling sorry for ourselves  :cry:

I'm sure it will come good in the end, but I'm worried about his biting, it isn't a nip, its a bite!

Sorry for droning on, but thanks.                    

[shaz]

hi you sound very upset,

tell me if i am wrong but your rusty must be about 14 -15 weeks old , he will be teething terribly now and puppies react in diffrent ways , the biting is his way of reliveing the pain , try giving him hard things to chew, but most of all you must give him a sharp tap on the nose and say no very loudly when he bites you even when playing, if you have a crate put him in it when he bites , and let him out when he calms down, persiver with it all ,he will be in a lot off pain but let him know that it is not allright to bite, my harley is 5 months old and his back teeth are really bothering him but i will not stand for any aggresive biting, and he is learning very quickly and is a little trooper now ,have lots off chewy things around the house and give them to him when he is in biting mode,
hope this helps i am not an expert but have learnt from experiance.                    

[*Jay*]

Have you tried doing the "time outs" with him? I found this worked the best with Vegas but it was still a long slow process. Also, did you try him on a more natural food? Again, this did the world of good for Vegas - an improvement was noticed almost immediately.

The fact that your breeder has not been helpful would suggest to me that he/she is not a very reputable one and there may be a temperament issue involved.  Have you maybe thought about seeing a behaviourist? Never thought I'd say that about a 14 week old pup but I think you need to find out if the way he is acting is down to puppy behaviour or something more severe.  It is very difficult for us to advise without actually seeing him in action so maybe for your own piece of mind, it might be worthwile getting someone in who can see him with their own eyes? If you want to go down this road, ask your vet for a referral to a reputable behaviourist.

.                    

[Rusty]

Hi

Thankyou for your quick reply he is 13 weeks and we feed him, JWB but he won,t take it by itself, ham,mince beef,tuna  maybe I shouldn't but otherwise he won't eat  the breeder told us to feed him on Iams but we were struggling with him to eat that too, so we changed him over about 2 weeks ago to JWB. I'm very confused by it all, going to the vets tomorrow for wormer ask some advice them.

Thanks
Elle Mick Siobhan Yamin & Rusty                          

[Sheila]

The biting can be very difficult to deal with and it does feel like it goes on forever.

Without seeing your pup biting it is hard to tell if this is normal, exuberant puppy behaviour or something else.

Lottie can get very carried away with biting, usually when she is tired or hungry. She is worse with the kids, but my children are older and can act quickly to stop her, by using time out.

You sound so upset by it and that is understandable.....and you feel that this is the time you should be having fun and enjoying your pup.

As you dont seem to be getting any help from your breeder then definitely try your vet, they will have come across this problem lots of times.

Is Rusty able to go out for walks yet....sometimes they have excess energy that needs channelling, have you tried puppy classes.

When Lottie gets a bit grouchy in the evenings, then we run through her training exercises.....it's almost like her body is tired but her brain isn't. This usually works really well though.

I have found that rubbing a little baby teething gel on her gums has worked wonders, she stops the biting immediately.

I hope you find some help soon, please let us know.                    

[JANE D]

I had this trouble wth Charlie when he was little and like you I got really upset about it - thought I'd done the wrong thing having a dog there was just no pleasure in having him  and I hadn't yet found COL so didn't know who to ask :?  Anyway I muddled through doing what I thought was right - putting him in the kitchen when he started biting ( he spent a lot of time in the kitchen !!!!) He also used to grab clothes - jumping up and hanging on to my top and just wouldn't let go. I suppose it must have looked funny - me in dispair with a puppy dangling from my T shirt  
Anyway to cut a long story short - after finding COL I realised that so many other owners had had the same problem and I relaxed a bit and slowly he just grew out of it. It was probably just a teething thing but I just didn't know that at the time.
So hang on in there - I'm sure it will all sort itself out as he gets older - but just wanted you to know that other people have felt just like you.
Best wishes    Jane and Charlie                    

[Tracey J]

Hi there,

My heart really goes out to you.  You've had all the excitement in the build up to getting your pup and now you can't enjoy it.  We were exactly the same with Molly last year, and at the time hadn't yet discovered COL and thought that this was how all cockers were.  We were told that it was probably teething problems, but once she had all her adult teeth there was no excuse.  After a few months of near misery we met a couple with a 12 week old cocker, imagine my shock when I bent to pet her and there were no teeth in sight, just a gentle little pup.  

That was when we considered re-homing because we just had enough of the constant biting.  We decided to try one last time, changed her food to Naturediet and stuck a chewy or a toy in her mouth whenever she approached us (ie. every 3 seconds ) and held onto it while she chewed and petted her at the same time.  After a few weeks she was a changed pup.  She still has a fondness for using her teeth when excited but is now easily warned off (she must be the only dog that stops biting when someone shouts "teeth!!" at her ) and is a gentle, loving dog for the most part.

Please don't think you are alone with this problem, we thought we were and it was awful.  The main thing is to be consistent and be prepared for it to take some time.

I hope things improve for you soon so that you can enjoy your little puppy.

Cheers

Tracey & Molly                    

[Pammy]

Hi all - sorry to see you're still having problems - but this phase does seem to go on forever. From reading your posts - I think maybe you have higher expectations and are also perhaps trying too hard - all very comendable, but you need to take a much firmer line with him. It won;t stop you having nice cuddles etc - but clearly show Rusty who's boss.

Elle said that when Rusty "bit" your daughter she put him on her knee, he then bit her face. What she should have done is not put him on her knee - he should have been taken straight out with a very firm no and unceremoniously put in the kitchen and left for no more than 5 minutes.

This should be done everytime he bites - no exceptions, nothing that can be taken as a cuddle or gentle talking should be given. Hold him firmly by his tummy and straight into the kitchen - every time - no exceptions. It's the only way he'll get the message.

Unless you do genuinely have an aggressive dog - and we simply cannot tell that on here - this is normal exuberant behaviour that he's getting away with - and he mustn't. He will grow out of it but only if you train it out.

As has also been said - he's probably teething now which can also make them a bit grumpy. Things to chew will be very welcome, but you control how he gets them and give him lots of praise when he chews what he's meant to - but gentle - not excited praise.

You also say you change his routine - don't. He will benefit from a clear routine - all changing it does is confuse him and can encourage the anxiety reactions - nipping and biting. It is also absolutely vital that you all treat him in exactly the same way - or he will think he is higher up in the family than he should be.

Feeding - JWB is a good food - but don't add anything to it - that upsets the balance - especially meat as you're upping the protein levels and some dogs are very sensitive to this. One of mine is! The more you add to get him to eat it - the more you're putting him in control. Do you leave his food down? If so try taking it uo after 15 minutes and then nothing until the next meal time. He won't starve - when he's hungry enough he'll eat. If you do want to make it a bit more appetising - try warming it in the microwave for a few seconds - it makes it give off lovely smells (to a dog that is) Or try adding a bit of saltfree gravy. Perhaps a bit of raw beaten egg or rice/pasta. Dried foods are carefully balanced and adding stuff throws that out which can affect some dogs in bad ways.

I don't yet know if you have got the book that's been recommended several times - but you really should. It's a very worthwhile investment.

hth - do give us an update.                    

[PennyB]

I'd agree with Pam. 'I put him on my knee today to give him into trouble for biting my 12 year old and he caught me in the face, I immediately put him in the kitchen' if I'm right in thinking the pup had already misbehaved and so you put him on your knee, but then the pup probably thought because you did that he was on to a good thing so what was wrong in biting and then he did it again and you put him out the kitchen so now he's confused.

What you'll find with any dog training its all about timing. Get it wrong and you find you're rewarding the wrong behaviour so its not the dog at fault. I took one of mine to a 1-2-1 session and my dog trainer kept pointing out how each time I did something I kept rewarding the wrong thing in everything we ran through (it was like some hilarious dance as I also kept tripping up trying to do it right). The same goes for when he bites or other bad behaviour and you do your timeouts if you do them at the wrong time he'll get confused as to what he's actually done wrong (especially if you don't do them when he bites the 1st time).

What you're experiencing is still perfectly normal behaviour for a pup of this age.

Our 1st cocker managed to rip my sisters ear when she was a pup. My sister was screaming the place down as she went off to A&E, not because of what had happened but the fact that she thought the dog would be taken away and pts (not that that was ever suggested).

Rearing a happy healthy puppy takes a lot of hard work, harder than I remembered from when I was younger (I couldn't believe how tough it was when I got my 1st pup as an adult, it seemed so easy when my mum did it!) and it takes a hell of a lot of patience. You will get there but it will feel like an eternity.

Sadly there a no quick fixes.

Is there a local puppy class running over the summer as you need to book into one now. If not go along and watch one (if anything if there is choice where you live its worth seeing which is the best).                    

[TOPAZ BILLY]

Hi,

Sorry to hear you are suffering still but all I can say is this is normal :roll: Abby is coming up to 15 weeks and still has a go and if excited will nip your face when coming for a cuddle.  You have to react swiftly and everyone in the family must do the same :? not easy I know with kids! but we put Abby in the bathroom and all toys are removed, after a couple of minutes she comes out but we don't play with her again until she has calmed right down and we start the game not her!
They are very much like children and ignoring does work as long as everybody does it, and then make the game lots of fun with loads of praise whilst he plays nice. We have been doing this from day one and whilst she hasn't stopped at least we are in control and we feel it will work eventually.

Good luck, don't give up on him yet!


Michelle                    

[PennyB]

Just to add that Ruby my 1st pup here was like a rabid dog at times (and at others just a demon pup who incessantly bit me at every turn but then she was a very confident pup) and I never once thought that she was badly bred or whatever or it was down to food, and the breeder can only help so much especially as its mostly the sort of advice you'll probably get on here. Some pups are worse than others—I have 2 who were like chalk and cheese with regard to this (mind you I never felt a thing with Wilf as he was being a demon towards Ruby—LOL—a lot of the time he would throw himself on her and hang off her ears with his tiny needle puppy teeth).

So I could get some peace in the evening I would settle her in her crate with a chew or something not because she was biting at the time but to pre-empt any problems. Its seems your pup may also need somewhere to go where he can be around you but not hanging off you sometimes and have quiet times to himself. However remember if you do get a crate it should never be used as a punishment or timeouts or for extended/long periods of time.

Please read Gwen Baileys book or anything else you can get hold of and go to a puppy class as your pup needs to also socialize with other dogs and use his teeth on them.                    

[Shirley]

Hi there

I just wanted to reassure you that we went through it too. There were days when I could only see that we had a 'devil pup' who was showing signs that he was going to grow into a vicious dog :evil: .  

We used 'time out' as the only form of punishment - I personally, would not recommend that you hit him or put him in his crate  :?  

You don't necessarily have to carry him through the house to the kitchen - we just put Morgan out of the room that we were in, when he started getting bitey - it's the separation from you that he won't like :wink: .  Make sure that there are no toys, etc for him in the room that he's being left in (as Pam said, no more that a few minutes).  

It is a long drawn out process and many times we'd put Morgan out and he was still trying to bite as we closed the door on him - we'd let him back in and he'd bite us straight away so he'd go straight back out.  When you're watching Coronation Street it's a pain in the backside having to put him out, let him in, put him out AGAIN but it's very important that you stick ridgedly to the rules.

I'm looking after a 14 week old puppy for a week just now and she's all teeth :wink: .  Every time she comes near you she bites - we're doing exactly the same with her as we did with Morgan but it's hard work and I'm glad it's only for the week especially with Cooper still only 7 months and demanding lots of attention too.  

Set down your rules and stick to them and you'll soon have a well behaved pup that you can cuddle without fear of losing your nose  :wink:  

Good luck

Shirley  :wink:                    

[Rusty]

Hi All, Many thanks for all the replies, I think we both just needed some reassurance.

What Pammy said is quite true, I think we are all trying far too hard. I have taken some time off work so that we can all spend time with Rusty together. Maybe this wasn't a good idea, as it is probably only increasing the amount of fussing over him. I also think my wife fusses over him far too much. Yes, he's a wee cracker and all you want to do is cuddle him and play with him, but as my wife came from a family of serious animal lovers who crooned over their animals constantly spoiling them, she is only treating the dog the way she knows how. I, on the other hand had a dog as very young child (it was a cocker btw), but he was accidentally knocked down and he was never replaced. Therefore I basically grew up without animals and I could have went right throughout my entire life without one. But, it was always in my mind I suppose that we would evetually have a dog when the kids were old enough to help. What I'm trying to say is, I don't fuss over him the way my wife does! We've spoken about it and she's agreed (well, knows she has too) to curb the crooning as much.

When I previously mentioned about his routine, I didn't mean that we change his personal routine. I meant that we take him to different places so he can socialize and discover when out.  :oops:

We have Gwen baileys book.

I personally feel very let down by our 'breeder'. He 'promised' to send us photos when the litter was a few days old right up to when we took him home - nothing. He made up some cock and bull story about the KC details and how they had been filled in wrong so he would have to resend them - we fell for that one!  Best bit about it, I'm quite a scrupolous person and had it been a car, I would have ran a mile!!! Why didn't I see it?  :oops:  His tail hadn't even been docked properly! Can I name and shame, or is that not the done thing? Anyway, we chose him and we love him, so its all water under the bridge.

I'm glad we found this site, as everyone is very sympathetic and very helpful. Its good to know we are not alone.

So, what I basically conclude is; he just an over exuberant puppy who thinks he rules the roost due to the amount of over attention he receives. We just get a bit frustrated with the biting and we need to try relax a bit more with it.

One last thing, as we are feeding him JWB, we have been putting in a bit of meat here and there  :oops:  but this morning we tried the JWB only and he wouldn't look at it. I'm all for lifting it after 15 minutes, eaten or not, as I know he will eventually come round to knowing thats his food and thats it! Eat or go hungry. However, he then wolfed the lot down after my wife put a couple of tablespoons of milk over it. I know this immediately broken the rules, but is it ok to give him a wee bit milk with his JWB.

Thank you for all your help and advice and for taking the time to reply to our moans!!!!!

P.S. He barks quite a bit and very loudly for such a small pup. I don't want to stop him expressing himself, but I have to consider our neighbours. He especially barks when being given into trouble - its as if to say "don't dare give me into bother, I'm the boss"! And he apt to a bit of growling too!  :roll:  We give a firm "be quiet". Any suggestions?

P.P.S I mentioned before on another post, that he walks on his two back paws, with his eyes popping out and choking. It takes me about 1/2 hour to walk 100yds with him, due to the stop starting. Treats and toys just do not entertain him when he's out alone with me. He's howling and yelping the whole time to get home. So to try not let him choke himself, we bought a harness, which I had hoped would give more control to me and stop him howling from the choking. I was getting funny looks from people, as I think they thought I was maybe intentionally hurting him or being cruel. I have read that its not a good idea to put him in a harness and to teach him with the collar. Any suggestions?

Mick & Fousty......I mean Rusty  :oops: