Author Topic: SA getting worse.  (Read 2296 times)

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Offline murph8

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SA getting worse.
« on: January 24, 2011, 11:20:33 AM »
Hi all,
Recently i asked for help with Alfie and his seperation anxiety and got lots of good advice but things have gone from bad to worse and i'm completely shattered and beginning to feel totally trapped.  :'(

He has to be by my side constantly and even if he's asleep and i get up off the chair he'll jump up and follow me. He'll push in between me and my children on sofa which i worry may in time become more of an issue. I've stuck rigidly to my plan of starting from scratch in terms of putting coat on and shoes but not actually going anywhere, going round the corner (which immediatly he begins his whistling and yipping) returning but ignoring him until he calms down etc but nothing. I had to put him in kitchen the other day whilst i cleaned the floors and as he was calm i thought id pop upstairs to put some washiing to dry on radiators. He whistled and yipped for about a minute then stopped which has never happened before, so i came downstairs and gave him a treat, then went back up again and again he stopped so returned and praised him and rewarded him with another treat. I thought id had a breakthrough and was just beginning to feel smug, but alas it was a one off.

He is horrendous and believe me i have put so much effort into this but am starting to feel resentful now.
On top of this last night at around 4.00am he yipped and whistled for two hours (he didn't need toilet) and he's always been fine at night time so i'm at my wits end.

He will not leave my side at all. When i need to put him in kitchen for whatever reason he goes mad and as i'm starting back at work on Wednesday, i'm very stressed. It's only for a couple of hours but can only imagine what state he'll get iinto. He watches me constantly just waitiing for me to move and i can't relax at all.
Please help   :012:



Offline murph8

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Re: SA getting worse.
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2011, 02:19:31 PM »
Well now i'm really confused   :huh:

Decided to call a dog behaviourist re problem and she says the techniques i've been using eg, leaving for a few seconds then building up,leaving him a kong etc are a waste of time on my Alfie as he's got severe SA and in order to work through this i must not leave him for at least 6 weeks!!!

This is just not possible. I am here 90% of the time and have changed my hours to make sure im never longer than two hours.


She is very reputable and works through your vets but she's sent me into complete panic   :o

Does this mean i'm always going to have this problem??




Offline Black Red + Yellow

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Re: SA getting worse.
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2011, 02:26:36 PM »
Am so sorry to hear this and I can really understand the resentment building......you know you are supposed to be enjoying your puppy and it darn well doesn't feel like it eh!

I am not an expert and I really don't know that the 'not leaving him for 6 weeks' is the right way to go?  Personally, I would have thought that a stepping programme of gradually leaving him would have been recommended rather than not at all for 6 weeks....after 6 weeks of being with you solidly, would it not be just as hard? but I could be taking a load of tosh.

Where does Alfie sleep?  Does he have a bed in a quiet corner or a crate?  What does he think of them?  Does he take himself off for sleeps in his 'safe place'?

Offline mooching

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Re: SA getting worse.
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2011, 02:32:37 PM »
He'll push in between me and my children on sofa which i worry may in time become more of an issue.
How do you react when he does this? I'd suggest not allowing him on the sofa at all, or training him to only come up when he's invited.

Also, I never give Alfie a treat when I have been upstairs or out, and then come back in, because to me that makes my coming back even more exciting. But I do give him a treat whenever I leave him (just not when I come back) - that way he associates me going with nice things.

Offline murph8

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Re: SA getting worse.
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2011, 02:57:53 PM »
Am so sorry to hear this and I can really understand the resentment building......you know you are supposed to be enjoying your puppy and it darn well doesn't feel like it eh!

I am not an expert and I really don't know that the 'not leaving him for 6 weeks' is the right way to go?  Personally, I would have thought that a stepping programme of gradually leaving him would have been recommended rather than not at all for 6 weeks....after 6 weeks of being with you solidly, would it not be just as hard? but I could be taking a load of tosh.

Where does Alfie sleep?  Does he have a bed in a quiet corner or a crate?  What does he think of them?  Does he take himself off for sleeps in his 'safe place'?

He sleeps in crate in kitchen but not with door shut as only recently introduced it but its very cosy for him and he's quite happy to go in. At night he knows that once we've been outside and he's been to toilet it's time to go into his crate and is no bother at all.

This lady is ABPC and has 25 years experience but when she said the method of going out bit at a time "never works for dog with SA" and the ONLY way he would ever get over this was to
never be alone for at least 6-8 weeks my heart and all hope started to fade rapidly. I feel really downhearted about ever resolving this.

Mooching i see now that maybe rewarding him when i came back wasn't really a positive thing to do. Think i got a bit excited that he'd calmed down so quickly. Would you recommend giving him a treat as i go upstairs then even if it is for short period of time? Would it reinforce pthat its a good thing when i leave him?? Have only ever given him treat when i actually leave the house.

Oh by the way he loves his fish cakes  :luv:












Offline Black Red + Yellow

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Re: SA getting worse.
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2011, 03:11:29 PM »
O he sounds like he is settled in his sleeping area well :luv:

I don't know what the best advice is......I think it is unrealistic personally to stay with your dog solidly for 6 - 8 weeks but that's just my personal opinion......it's very confusing when seeking advice as what works with one pup will not work with another and so on.

Maybe you could seek a 2nd opinion and then meet with them and discuss the way forward and you will be able to make a more informed decision.

In the meantime, look up DAP - (collars and diffusers) these offer dog appeasing pheramones - I've checked and there are some aimed at puppies - they mimic a substance produced naturally by a lactating bitch to reassure and calm her puppies - I used an adult one on my Lab during fireworks and they certainly helped.

Offline mooching

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Re: SA getting worse.
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2011, 03:14:40 PM »
Would you recommend giving him a treat as i go upstairs then even if it is for short period of time? Would it reinforce that its a good thing when i leave him?? Have only ever given him treat when i actually leave the house.
I keep a small jar of treats at the bottom of the stairs, and always give one to Alfie as I go upstairs. (It's handy there too as it's by the front door, and he gets a treat if he sits when someone comes to the door!) So I would say it's worth a try!

Also, whenever you come back down, just carry on with things as normal, don't make any fuss of him at all.







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Offline Geordietyke

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Re: SA getting worse.
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2011, 03:17:21 PM »
I feel for you, I really do.  Odie suffered terrible SA from bringing him home at 8 weeks old, up to 19 weeks.  I'm a stay at home mum and was always around with him, which I suppose, isn't all it's cracked up to be.  Odie's party trick would be to whine and poo in his puppy pen whenever I left him alone (5 mins to do housework elsewhere, or 30 mins for school run).  I would always have him outside to toilet 30 mins before I needed to leave him but he just refused to go, but would do it the second he was left alone :'(  I was like you, I HATED those first few months and I really didn't bond with him at all.  All I was doing was cleaning him, the floor and the puppy bars twice a day and it can really get you down. 

I was at my wits end and on the verge of sending him back to his breeder (I was so depressed about it :-\) when I was told to try leaving him for short periods of time (initially sitting in the same room, then moving a short distance away etc).  I done this over a 2 week period (3 times a day) and suddenly something just clicked in his brain and he stopped soiling his puppy pen!  He still will whine a bit if I've put him in his crate and I'm still in the house but I am perservering with it and it is lessening.  He certainly isn't upset, more like 'let me out mum!'.   So this method of dealing with SA definately worked for me and I now have clean dog who can be left up to 4 hours. 

Apols for long reply (and if I've already replied to any previous threads you've posted on this ;)).  Just wanted to give you some hope that this method worked in my case.  Oh, I also used the DAP spray in conjunction with the training so not sure if helped things along too.  Lesley
Both taken away from us far too soon. x  RIP Angels Odie & Archie, causing mayhem at the Rainbow, no doubt!

Offline Sheryl

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Re: SA getting worse.
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2011, 03:22:55 PM »
I am sorry but I disagree with not treating him.  The whole idea of positive reinforcement is rewarding good behaviour, whatever that behaviour is.  I would also have rewarded him for being quiet when I was upstairs too.  As long as he knows what he is being rewarded for.  He was good twice and that is great but you have to see it for what it is.  Not a one off but something that will require constant repetition and there are going to be many times where he doesn't get it right.  He is just testing you and his boundaries, thats all.  I used to reward Kali for not whining and believe me, it took forever but we got there in the end.  Just remember that nothing he is doing is to annoy you, he is just being a juvenile.

Does he know the quiet command?  For me, I would be teaching 'quiet' and then applying it to when you are out of the room.  I was taught that dogs see in pictures and actions and then when they start to 'get it' you add the word.  Lyla knows the command as 'quiet calm' and believe me it works.......and she is a minx and a half!
Sheryl, Holly, Kali, Baby Lyla and Angel Chloe

Offline mooching

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Re: SA getting worse.
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2011, 03:27:51 PM »
I am sorry but I disagree with not treating him.  The whole idea of positive reinforcement is rewarding good behaviour, whatever that behaviour is.  I would also have rewarded him for being quiet when I was upstairs too.  As long as he knows what he is being rewarded for. 

Just wondering how the pup would know that he was being rewarded for being quiet, and not just because his owner had come back?

If Alfie whined when I went upstairs but was then quiet, I'd call out "good boy!", so that he'd know that being quiet was a good thing, but would not treat when I came back.

Offline Sheryl

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Re: SA getting worse.
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2011, 03:38:13 PM »
I would make sure the quiet command was known before I started to lengthen the distance but I would not just give praise instead of a treat whilst the problem is so ingrained.  Even now my girls look for a treat with commands that have been a problem.....and they still get it.

Sheryl, Holly, Kali, Baby Lyla and Angel Chloe

Offline Sheryl

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Re: SA getting worse.
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2011, 03:41:07 PM »
Just thinking that I would probably be teaching a reliable sit/stay too! :blink:
Sheryl, Holly, Kali, Baby Lyla and Angel Chloe

Offline murph8

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Re: SA getting worse.
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2011, 04:21:49 PM »
I feel for you, I really do.  Odie suffered terrible SA from bringing him home at 8 weeks old, up to 19 weeks.  I'm a stay at home mum and was always around with him, which I suppose, isn't all it's cracked up to be.  Odie's party trick would be to whine and poo in his puppy pen whenever I left him alone (5 mins to do housework elsewhere, or 30 mins for school run).  I would always have him outside to toilet 30 mins before I needed to leave him but he just refused to go, but would do it the second he was left alone :'(  I was like you, I HATED those first few months and I really didn't bond with him at all.  All I was doing was cleaning him, the floor and the puppy bars twice a day and it can really get you down. 

I was at my wits end and on the verge of sending him back to his breeder (I was so depressed about it :-\) when I was told to try leaving him for short periods of time (initially sitting in the same room, then moving a short distance away etc).  I done this over a 2 week period (3 times a day) and suddenly something just clicked in his brain and he stopped soiling his puppy pen!  He still will whine a bit if I've put him in his crate and I'm still in the house but I am perservering with it and it is lessening.  He certainly isn't upset, more like 'let me out mum!'.   So this method of dealing with SA definately worked for me and I now have clean dog who can be left up to 4 hours. 

Apols for long reply (and if I've already replied to any previous threads you've posted on this ;)).  Just wanted to give you some hope that this method worked in my case.  Oh, I also used the DAP spray in conjunction with the training so not sure if helped things along too.  Lesley
Thankyou so much for that, it's pretty much exactly how i have been feeling and yet so desperate for things to go well. I have invested so much time and effort (not to mention money) that the thought that unless i do things her way it definitely would not work was just about the last straw. Spoke to neighbour who has always kept dogs and she agreed to carry on with the ways in which you lot here have suggested and see it through and that he will, with age, learn that it's not the end of the world when i go out.
Did mention DAP to said ady who said they are no good and a kong was only good for dogs that were bored not who had SA. I said that it was meant to send him a positive message about me going out bt apparantly i got that wrong too!!
On a very positive note and i am literally bursting at this my neighbour also said Alfie does calm down for a bit now when i go out although any noise he hears does set him off again.

I am so lucky to have found this forum.



Offline mooching

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Re: SA getting worse.
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2011, 04:24:47 PM »
murph8

Do you leave the TV or radio on for him when you go out? If not, I'd suggest trying it, as it helps to mask any other noises.

Offline murph8

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Re: SA getting worse.
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2011, 04:28:11 PM »
Yes i've just started leaving classic fm on for him.