Free hunting/recall troubles

[WackoJacko]

I wasn't sure whether to put this here or in the working board as technically I'm not training Jacko to work (if we ever get there then sure, but I'm not going to cry about it if we don't). Since I got him at 11 months old (May 2015), I've had huge problems with Jacko obsessively free hunting. Every time it looked as though we were getting somewhere, something would go wrong & we would go back to basics. Again & again & again.

2 weeks ago, I took him to some local woods, that we've walked a million times before, where he usually behaves himself. Was making sure to keep his attention on me & not letting him stray to far away, when he bolted into the woods on a scent, & was missing for 6 hours!
Since then, the only 'off lead' time he has been getting (not including agility class/comps) he has been on his long line, on the boring empty playing fields. We've been working on retrieves, offlead heel, recall, stop whistle & teaching him to turn on the whistle. We've also been seeing a gundog trainer for 1-2-1 once every month for the past 2 months. He will not hunt for the dummy if theres even the slightest chance of the real thing being somewhere nearby!

Its been over a year now that we've been trying to work on this with rubbish results, where am I going wrong? Am I ever going to be able to trust him off the lead after he's been allowed to bog off doing his own thing for so long? My gundog trainer suggested I book him in for residential, but I'm not sure if that's a good idea, as its a lot of money to spend for him to end up listening to our trainer but not me?!

Any help or suggestions would be appreciated, I'm losing the will to live here

[MIN]

I feel your pain 
 Gemma is a dog of two tails. On family walks she mooches about not to far away, responds to whistle and voice commands. Walks nice and close when on her lead.
  When in the field working with us she pulls like a train, ignores the whistle on some occasions and zooms about trying to do the whole field herself. This makes her sound like a untrained hooligan which is not true.
Our problem is that we have never been able to control her enthusiasm for work and life.
But when working I notice most dogs have  "wind in their ears" moments so I do not feel bad. As our first ever home trained dog I am and always will be proud of her.
And as she has ever been told " never darken our drives again"  I think sometimes we expected to much after all she is first and foremost a pet

[Pearly]

Hello and welcome to COL - I've seen your into thread but thought I'd say hello here 

I'm a bit disappointed that your gundog trainer is suggesting 'residential' after just 2 months/lessons? Especially as this time of year the ground scent is far stronger and the cold weather will hold the scent down - I would hope they mentioned this?

You have your work cut out for you due to Jacko's start in life - if he was allowed to free hunt as a young dog.....but to be fair, my wcs is 22 months and hasn't been allowed to free hunt (very much) some days she's fine, others she'll bog off although it does tend to be minutes rather than hours (and I bet it felt like six days....) . She has a huge prey drive, is motivated by hunting and I've yet to work out what else so I can use it to make me more interesting than whatever else is out there!  She's delightful but very had work and I'm guess your boy may be similar 

Persevere.  Some cockers mature at a young age.  Others can take very much longer.  Coral is a work in progress and I'm sure will be at least another 12 months at least before she's steady.....and not chasing  .

You need to get your boy some brakes.   I would suggest working on the stop whistle/brakes over trying to do anything else with him - agility is great fun and a brilliant way to bond with him but it doesn't embed a stop when you need it......like wise fly ball - it may introduce steadiness to moving objects but these wcs are not daft - they know the difference between a tennis ball and a rabbit/pheasant/deer/sheep.......

I can see you are based East Mdlands - there are some great trainers in your area and also more towards Staffordshire - I've recently started back with a gundog trainer in Derbyshire who has a rabbit pen, pheasant pen, resident chickens and sheep - all for training and really does understand what makes out dogs tick! Interestingly, she doesn't subscribe to the use of a long line which has been my safety device for a year now........! She's also a postive gundog trainer and doesn't use treats!

Jayne
Purdey, Pearl, Sally and Coral

[WackoJacko]

Thankyou for the replies!

I'm glad its not just me facing these issues! MIN, If I could just get to where your Gemma is on walks, I would be happy with that haha!

Pearly - Nope, no mention of the ground etc, althougb I understand the season is underway & we are pheasant heavy round here, which is part of the reason we are back on the field on a longline rather than out walking in cool places, he was on a hunting mission the second I would let him off the lead! Usually he would be gone for a couple of minutes & know exactly where I was, but I think he went too far, got lost & then freaked out when people were walking round in the woods, big torches & shouting for him, resulting in 6 hours (& yes, easily the worst 6 hours of my life)!

My trainer seems to think that if I could get him up to working stage, then if he was worked he wouldn't feel the need to go off hunting on walks too much, as it would be meeting his needs out on the shoot? On our last 2 sessions, we've been working on introducing him to dummies, trying (with little success haha) getting him hunting for dummies in the training lane, & introducing me to the different whistle commands. He is steady to balls & dummies being thrown, but I know that if a rabbit were to run out infront, it would be bye bye Jacko!
Our trainer does have a rabbit pen/ducks/livestock, but we haven't got round to working with them yet.

I will be sure to make stop whistle my top priority. He understands the concept of pip=sit when at my feet/on a lead, but we haven't moved to adding in any distance yet, as I want to get it really drilled into him!

Pearly, would you mind PMing me details of your trainer? Derby may be closer than where I am driving out to now, as we are in Notts.

Thankyou both

[Murphys Law]

I don't take Millie, my 16 month old wcs, to the woods any more because of her free hunting. Although she is only out of sight for 3 or 4 minutes, it is 3 or 4 minutes too much for me. I prefer to take her to open spaces with long sight lines where the use of a ball keeps her very close. In fact, if she knows I have a ball I struggle to get her far enough away from me to practice the stop and recall whistles.

But the sights and smells of woodland sends her over the threshold and she runs around with this manical look on her face.

[Pearly]

I know that maniacal look well!

I'll PM you the name of a trainer in Derby - I've seen him work on shoots and have friends who have taken their dogs to his weekly class. They have had great success and now working their 12 month old ESS - and yes, he really is ready 

The trainer I'm going to is on the Staffs/Derbyshire border not far from Leek. I will also drop her details in the note but she doesn't train in December (every day is shooting  )

It is a massive step, as you are aware, to go from little ground scent to a) huge amounts and b) moving game.  Coral has had 1 day on Partridge and was pretty good.  Her first encounter at flushing a pheasant saw her yapping into the distance - we are also back to open fields/white grass and very short sessions so she's not bored.  Going back from free hunting to dummy work is not easy. 

They really are worth all this effort but some days feel like we are heading backwards not forwards!

There is also a training day his Sunday in Roterham that I'll send you details of - not sure how much Coral and I will do of the day but the trainer is one of the best (IMO) positive gundog trainers in the UK.

Jacko is clearly a very lucky boy to have found you - not many would persevere as you are doing and it is easy to understand why so many cockers (and other spaniels) end up in rescues at a young age.

Jayne

[WackoJacko]

Ok, so have bit the bullet & sent a message to the Derby trainer pleading for help haha!
Yes, we too are trying to keep sessions short & mixed in with playing with other dogs (or rather, getting interrupted by people letting there dogs run over whilst we are training), fetching a ball etc. Definitely understand going backwards, when he was missing for 6 hours I was ready to pack his bags & send him for residential there & then! Feels a bit like cheating though, id like to be able to say ive trained him up myself, whatever the finished product is haha!

Thankyou

[Londongirl]

I've recently started back with a gundog trainer in Derbyshire who has a rabbit pen, pheasant pen, resident chickens and sheep - all for training and really does understand what makes out dogs tick! Interestingly, she doesn't subscribe to the use of a long line which has been my safety device for a year now........! She's also a postive gundog trainer and doesn't use treats!

Jayne
Purdey, Pearl, Sally and Coral

I'd be really interested to hear what her methods are like, without a long line or treats. I never leave the house without either at the moment!

Welcome to COL, WhackoJacko. Yo've definitely come to the right place. Whatever issues anyone has with their cocker, someone here will have had the same and will have words of advice - or at least comfort!

[Alison D]

Thank goodness I am not alone in this.  I have the very same problem with my 17 month old golden show Cocker Milly.  We got Milly from a rescue aged 8 months and a letter from the previous owner said she 'chased birds but will come back to you eventually'.The truth is she is obsessed with birds and has a high prey drive    I spent several sessions with a gun dog trainer in a rabbit and bird pen where she improved such alot and I thought we had cracked it. But being clever, like spaniels are, she knows when she's not in an enclosure and still chases birds when the fancy takes her.  And boy can she shift when she wants to.  She does come back to a whistle but in her own time. Some days she's great and stays close by, other days she's got her own agenda!!! Consequently, I have to be very careful where I let her off lead.  I despair sometimes and am back to basic recall training again.  All the comments so far have been really helpful.

[lescef]

http://totallygundogs.com/help-my-spaniel-is-out-of-control/

This has just popped up on my fb page. It might make you feel better!   

[Londongirl]

http://totallygundogs.com/help-my-spaniel-is-out-of-control/

This has just popped up on my fb page. It might make you feel better!   

Some sound advice here even for those of us who have a pet dog we don't intend to work. The absolute gem, for me, is this:

If this is your first dog people will be very free with their advice... if those offering their opinions don’t have a spaniel nod politely and ignore them!

[bizzylizzy]

http://totallygundogs.com/help-my-spaniel-is-out-of-control/

This has just popped up on my fb page. It might make you feel better!   

Some sound advice here even for those of us who have a pet dog we don't intend to work. The absolute gem, for me, is this:

If this is your first dog people will be very free with their advice... if those offering their opinions don’t have a spaniel nod politely and ignore them!

Just read that and thought of you straight away!😆 V

[WackoJacko]

http://totallygundogs.com/help-my-spaniel-is-out-of-control/

This has just popped up on my fb page. It might make you feel better!   

I came across that site when desperately searching the internet for answers on what to do with the little sod haha! Really good info, & have been trying to stick to it like the bible these past 2 weeks since he went missing. Thanks!

[Pearly]

That's a really good article written by Pippa Mattinson  she's absolutely right about peer pressure and temptation to do too much too soon!

Jayne - the Gundog trainer has Coral and myself in an enclosed area so it's safe without a line. It's been a really interesting experience so far, Coral thinks it's funny to stop on the whistle then run off at high speed - we ignore her and walk away, the confusion it's caused is remarkable!  All of a sudden she stays really close and works hard - I wouldn't like to test this outside the area tho  .

Lara has also shown me how Coral takes advantage and encroaches on my 'personal space' - she's only allowed in when I let her now or she's earned it (retrieve) otherwise she's encouraged to be moving. Using the double pip to turn her and when she's heading towards me to cast her off in a different direction - this so she doesn't associate double pip with the end of her fun......when she responds well to a command then: If a retrieve she's encouraged to jump up for a huge fuss or if she's stopped at distance on the whistle, I have to walk out to her - give lots of fuss and leave her with the stop hand signal as the last thing she sees - this so she knows what she's being praised for!  It is early days though - we are at our next lesson on Thursday, will pop an update on progress after!

It will be a long haul for Coral and myself with lots of steadiness training next year - I'm not sure she will be ready for next season but she will be a lot safer

[WackoJacko]

That's interesting Pearly, our trainer is similar, he is positive reinforcement based but doesn't like to use too many treats in his training. I've yet to hear back from the Derby trainer, but think I will book another session with our trainer. We were supposed to be there Sunday but it got called off due to torrential rain.

This mornings session on the field, he was doing really well. Staying close, heeling when told, practicing the stop whistle etc etc (still on long line), so I decided to take him to the second part of the field where the grass is about 3cm taller haha. Had him sit, threw the dummy a short distance, nice & easy for him. Sent him off to retrieve it - nose down, bum up, straight past dummy doing his hunting thing! Guess we aren't ready for the longer grass yet lol.

How do we progress from here? He is doing everything correctly on the playing field, even if I walk him among a large flock of seagulls he is paw-perfect.