Author Topic: Free hunting/recall troubles  (Read 3119 times)

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Offline Emilyoliver

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Re: Free hunting/recall troubles
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2016, 09:46:11 AM »
There will be lots of different suggestions for this...  And you may be doing this already.  Do you have him hunting close and turning reliably?  If he's hunting close you at least have the opportunity to get after him if he starts veering off course.  Because it sounds like he's just deciding when and where to hunt and then bolting on scent?  Will he hunt for balls?  If so then you could concentrate on him hunting very close to you for the balls.  Allowing him to retrieve at distance seems to be opening up opportunities for him to bolt.  Ok, I see you're having a bit of trouble getting him to hunt for dummies...  Have you tried a rabbit skin ball?  If you could find something he's mad keen on, you may succeed in getting him to hunt closer.  I'd not be 'walking' him at all - only hunting him under control and practicing discipline.  They totally know when your attention is fully on them and when it isn't.
Michelle, Emily and Ollie

Offline WackoJacko

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Re: Free hunting/recall troubles
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2016, 10:07:12 AM »
There will be lots of different suggestions for this...  And you may be doing this already.  Do you have him hunting close and turning reliably?  If he's hunting close you at least have the opportunity to get after him if he starts veering off course.  Because it sounds like he's just deciding when and where to hunt and then bolting on scent?  Will he hunt for balls?  If so then you could concentrate on him hunting very close to you for the balls.  Allowing him to retrieve at distance seems to be opening up opportunities for him to bolt.  Ok, I see you're having a bit of trouble getting him to hunt for dummies...  Have you tried a rabbit skin ball?  If you could find something he's mad keen on, you may succeed in getting him to hunt closer.  I'd not be 'walking' him at all - only hunting him under control and practicing discipline.  They totally know when your attention is fully on them and when it isn't.

Thanks for your reply :) We haven't done any 'traditional walking' for around 2 weeks now, the only 'offlead' time he's getting is on a long line doing training on an open playing field, practicing the things we've learnt at gundog sessions, or at agility (where he is 100& focused on me). I have however also been doing street walks on lead, should I stop doing this or is that ok to continue?

He is not hunting close, if the nose goes down he is off & oblivious to me. I've just begun teaching him to turn on the whistle, but we are still in the very very early stages, & ive been trying to concentrate on the stop whistle. I'm not sure if teaching too many whistle commands at once would be confusing for him? He wont hunt for tennis balls nor dummies if there's the slightest chance of something more interesting being around, even on the open field. I've been looking at rabbit skin dummies/balls. Would that be my best bet to get him hunting for me rather than himself? Can you tell I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing? Haha!

Thankyou :)

Offline Emilyoliver

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Re: Free hunting/recall troubles
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2016, 09:27:52 AM »
Hello again.  On lead walking is fine - it's the off lead walking that's likely to do harm if he is afforded the opportunity to free hunt.  So what you're doing is perfect.  Just try to make sure all the time with him out is interactive.  Playing with him, getting him to find the ball, making him sit and stay while you walk around him.

If you can get him at all interested in the ball, then try throwing in into a bush where he can't see it land.  And then encourage him to go in and hunt for it.  Show him it's really interesting and fun finding stuff.  When he finds it lots of praise and encourage him to bring it back to you.  He can do this while on a line (if you don't feel confident he won't bolt), or let him off to hunt for it as you can do this at close proximity to the bush.

Something others have done with some success is to feed all his meals during training.  If you only raw feed this could be a bit more difficult.  But if not - may be worth a try.  He should then learn that all good comes from you, and especially if he's hungry, he's more likely to want to interact with you if you're the food source!

A word on the stop whistle - is try to make sure he is rewarded for stopping - otherwise it becomes a negative thing and he's unlikely to want to respond with much enthusiasm.  Too often it's used to stop hunting or whatever.  Reward him with food, or a retrieve (if he likes that), or even with being able to resume hunting.  And don't try it if he's already bolting.

I appreciate it's going to be a very long road for you and this dog as he has learned that hunting for himself is the most rewarding thing.  It's going to be an uphill struggle to try and change this.  Not sure whether any of the above is helpful, but whatever - I hope you make progress with him as once you do, it will be hugely rewarding (for both him and you).
Michelle, Emily and Ollie

Offline WackoJacko

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Re: Free hunting/recall troubles
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2016, 10:21:36 AM »
Hello again.  On lead walking is fine - it's the off lead walking that's likely to do harm if he is afforded the opportunity to free hunt.  So what you're doing is perfect.  Just try to make sure all the time with him out is interactive.  Playing with him, getting him to find the ball, making him sit and stay while you walk around him.

If you can get him at all interested in the ball, then try throwing in into a bush where he can't see it land.  And then encourage him to go in and hunt for it.  Show him it's really interesting and fun finding stuff.  When he finds it lots of praise and encourage him to bring it back to you.  He can do this while on a line (if you don't feel confident he won't bolt), or let him off to hunt for it as you can do this at close proximity to the bush.

Something others have done with some success is to feed all his meals during training.  If you only raw feed this could be a bit more difficult.  But if not - may be worth a try.  He should then learn that all good comes from you, and especially if he's hungry, he's more likely to want to interact with you if you're the food source!

A word on the stop whistle - is try to make sure he is rewarded for stopping - otherwise it becomes a negative thing and he's unlikely to want to respond with much enthusiasm.  Too often it's used to stop hunting or whatever.  Reward him with food, or a retrieve (if he likes that), or even with being able to resume hunting.  And don't try it if he's already bolting.

I appreciate it's going to be a very long road for you and this dog as he has learned that hunting for himself is the most rewarding thing.  It's going to be an uphill struggle to try and change this.  Not sure whether any of the above is helpful, but whatever - I hope you make progress with him as once you do, it will be hugely rewarding (for both him and you).

Many thanks for your reply. I did manage to get him hunting for one specific manky old ball in the slightly longer grass earlier, after getting him super excited for it, leaving him in a sit/stay, dropping it slightly away from him without him seeing & then walking him towards it with 'find it! find it! find it!' in a stupid voice haha. I gave him 3 meters of longline to keep him close to me whilst doing it. Huge party when he found it & bought it back to me :) I've not yet taken him towards the bushy/tree areas as I found I was losing his focus when we got too close, but will build up to that.

Unfortunately he is raw fed, so training with his meals could be difficult, unless I bought some freeze dried or something.

Stop whistle - we are walking to heel, I stop, pip on whistle, he sits automatically when I stop, cheese for doing the right thing & released. :)

Thankyou! :D

Offline Emilyoliver

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Re: Free hunting/recall troubles
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2016, 10:59:52 AM »
Super well done - sounds like you're doing really well!  Great that he's excited by hunting for the ball.  Just keep at that.  And if he's really keen on it - you can use that as a reward for doing other things.  It's all about showing him that being with you is huge fun, and that you will help him to find all the fun stuff (which eventually could be birds  :D).  You can slowly move on to hiding balls in the longer grass as you move along.  So drop one when he's searching for another and once he's found the first, encourage him into the area where you've put the other and he'll quickly learn that he's guaranteed a find if he listens to you.  Good luck!
Michelle, Emily and Ollie

Offline WackoJacko

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Re: Free hunting/recall troubles
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2016, 05:46:24 PM »
Thanks EmilyOliver, still patiently waiting for my rabbit skin ball to arrive :D

We had our first gundog class with a new trainer today. Interesting experience & different methods from what I'm used to (praise rather than treats). We struggled at first but he was responding a lot better towards the end of the class. I will probably keep updating this for my own sake, so in the future when he being an arse I can read back & see how much better he is then compared to now ;)

Many thanks for your help.

Offline MIN

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Re: Free hunting/recall troubles
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2016, 05:50:57 PM »
keep updating because not only does it remind you of how far you both have come  but it also builds up our reference points for others who come after with the same or similar "woes"  ;)
Run free and fly high my beautiful Gemma
2011 - 2023 

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Offline WackoJacko

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Re: Free hunting/recall troubles
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2016, 08:49:30 AM »
Well, this morning has been awful, I could actually cry haha!
Same old field, long line on, wouldn't get his nose off the floor! Stop whistle, even though he is still only doing it next to me when I stop walking, seems to have become a 'I will do it if there's nothing better to look at' thing. Would NOT hunt for the tennis ball even on the short grass, glazing straight over it & carrying on going in whatever direction he took a fancy to. Not coming back when he was straying too far, I ended up standing on the long line to stop him wandering. In the end, we played ball as didn't want to end on an 'I'm annoyed with you' feel & left. All that progress we made last week seems to have gone out of the window!

Rabbit skin ball should be here for Wednesday, i'm hoping he likes it. Too early for wine???

Offline Londongirl

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Re: Free hunting/recall troubles
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2016, 09:15:09 AM »
If it's any consolation, I've noticed that training breakthroughs often come on the heels of a horrible and frustrating period of backsliding. I kept a diary of loose leash training and noticed a pattern. Also, I have Henry on the long line at the moment. After two months we are beginning to see some improvement but there are times when he's like a crazy whirling dervish on the end of the line. And the next day he'll be as calm as you like. Probably something environmental too. Henry's nose is glued to the ground on these frosty mornings.

I've felt like crying plenty of times after our morning walk. Good idea to end on something positive. Keep doing what you're doing. As for the wine - I won't tell if you don't. 😉
Rachael (me) and Henry (him)


Offline Pearly

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Re: Free hunting/recall troubles
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2016, 02:15:51 PM »
Just had a similar experience in the garden! I resorted to distraction using my voice and haven't touched her at all, I didn't even make eye contact with her but she got the message, ran indoors and put herself in her crate!

I have a massive head start on you given I've had Coral from a pup (which makes it worse really!!) but going right back to the very beginning I.e. As if she was a 9 week old pup plus the spacial awareness stuff really does seem to be paying off.  At the moment she's not being "walked" or even trained outdoors - there will be plenty of time for that when she's more controllable.  Right now I'm focussed on embedding stop and general obedience with no temptations at all........stuff I truly thought she had but as she's grown in confidence so has her disobedience or apparent lack of obedience!

It's never too early for wine  ;)

Hope tomorrow's session is better for both of you,

Jayne

Offline WackoJacko

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Re: Free hunting/recall troubles
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2016, 09:35:42 PM »
Redeemed himself back into my good books on tonights street walk. His leash walking was near perfect & he was sitting to the whistle very sharply every time I pipped.

Tomorrow is another day! :)

Offline WackoJacko

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Re: Free hunting/recall troubles
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2016, 10:15:05 AM »
Another update! Rabbit skin ball arrived today. We did a street walk this morning, so took him out for 5 minutes on the front garden with the new ball. He is MAD on it! Once I'd placed it without him seeing the first time, & he found it after me using our 'hunt' cue, that was it! Frantically searching for this ball with me. We did 3 goes, then back inside. Feeling hopeful :)

Offline Emilyoliver

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Re: Free hunting/recall troubles
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2016, 10:53:58 AM »
Another update! Rabbit skin ball arrived today. We did a street walk this morning, so took him out for 5 minutes on the front garden with the new ball. He is MAD on it! Once I'd placed it without him seeing the first time, & he found it after me using our 'hunt' cue, that was it! Frantically searching for this ball with me. We did 3 goes, then back inside. Feeling hopeful :)
Great news!  Keep at it - as said before - it's not going to be a quick fix.  But sounds really good so far.  Really really wishing you lots of fun with him and of course lots of improvement.  Looking forward to updates  :D
Michelle, Emily and Ollie

Offline WackoJacko

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Re: Free hunting/recall troubles
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2016, 12:20:28 PM »
Hello all.
Another update on my & Jacko's journey! At Gundog class on Sunday, he had his first introduction to a Dummy with wings attached as he just was NOT interested in the fake bird dummy at all! He was retrieving it & doing all of these fancy pants looking things that the trainer got him doing, which then he had me do with him. All was going well, he was steady, picking the 'bird' up etc until he realised that the wings attached were edible!! I saw a big improvement at class compared to the first one we went to however, he was much more attentive & switched on to me rather than our surroundings.

This morning however, our first trip back to the field since last Friday, was like a battle between me & his nose, & I definitely lost!! Even the rabbit skin ball wasn't as good as the scents on the ground. So we just did retrieves & stop whistle practice, then left.

Katie

Offline Pearly

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Re: Free hunting/recall troubles
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2016, 02:27:05 PM »
Sounds like really good progress  :D

I took Coral onto new ground on Sunday.  She thought about running off several times but chose to stay and work for me instead!  It's white grass with a small coppice, area of scrub and a pond so ideal spaniel land..........and full of scent! Every tussock was almost uprooted in her need to get under it!

This was off the long line as well  :D. 22 months old and starting to grow up - I'm certain next time we're on the new area she will bog off but at the moment I'm only training her 3-4 times a week, the rest is on lead heel work  ;)