Free hunting/recall troubles

[WackoJacko]

Sounds like really good progress 

I took Coral onto new ground on Sunday.  She thought about running off several times but chose to stay and work for me instead!  It's white grass with a small coppice, area of scrub and a pond so ideal spaniel land..........and full of scent! Every tussock was almost uprooted in her need to get under it!

This was off the long line as well  . 22 months old and starting to grow up - I'm certain next time we're on the new area she will bog off but at the moment I'm only training her 3-4 times a week, the rest is on lead heel work 

That's fantastic to read, well done! Its reassuring to hear that it can be done!

[Pearly]

I think the proof will be in what happens tomorrow but Sunday was a good day 

[Murphys Law]

I decided to be brave today and take Millie to some new woods that I knew would be nice a quiet. We had an hour walk and I would say that she was only actually in sight for about half of that
She would come straight back on the whistle but she was so excited she wouldn't even stop for the offered treat.
In fact, it amazes me that she can find me so easily.
How do they do it?

[JeffD]

Love reading these posts, brings back all the memories of Teals training, Teal at 4 years is so easy now, to be honest I really miss the training years its so rewarding on the good days and those special days when they do things that leave you either crying with frustration or in a fit of belly laughs.

[WackoJacko]

Hello! Not a good update today I'm afraid.
We have had a 1-2-1 with the gundog trainer today as classes finished for winter. Total disaster & has left me feeling defeated. In the little fenced in area getting him hunting, & he slipped under the fence, under another fence & was gone! 3 fields & 20 minutes later we managed to get him back, but he was totally oblivious to us, his surroundings, the whistle, horses blah blah blah. This is the first time the trainer has actually physically seen what he's like & I don't think he realised just how bad he is. He was honest with me & said he's not sure I will ever be able to rein him in, especially as I missed out on his first year so we don't know what foundations (if any) or training (if any) he had put in. The faintest bit of scent on the ground & he just switches off from the world. Apparently my best bet is to try & get 100% stop whistle & turning on the whistle but its going to be very difficult considering just how obsessed he is?!

Am I fighting a losing battle here?! Perhaps I should admit defeat, confine him to the long line & just focus on training the things we are good at lol?

In other news, he has his first starters flyball comp in March

[lescef]

There's no harm in trying the whistle.  Ours are quite good now but don't always come out of a sniff!
I've more or less accepted that we'll never be able to go for leisurely walks around other dogs, which rules out lots of touristy places. It is sad but I feel it's not worth the anguish it causes us all. Try to think of all the other positives!

[JeffD]

To be honest having had a few wild spaniels go through my hands and does sound like he spent his first year free hunting and breaking that is extremely hard to do.
I did have success with one dog but it took a couple of months of long line only walks and conditioning to the whistle. 10 or 12 times a day the dog was whistled and given a treat in the house after 4 weeks I would give the recall when out on the long line a couple of times each session. The dog was never allowed to go anywhere with any game scent for the next 6 months and his owners eventually worked this dog but always had to watch him carefully.

[Pearly]

I feel your pain. 

When Coral wants to work for me she is stunning - Saturday last week we trained for 20 minutes, stopped to shot, retrieved 3 blind and 2 thrown- all off lead! Roll forward to Monday, same field but a different area and a different exercise (dropping dummies in white grass as she was hunting to keep her close).  Stop whistle and her bum hit the ground, I threw the dummy over her head and she stayed rooted to the ground......I walked back c 6 steps then sent her to fetch.  She shot out to the dummy picked it up headed straight back to me at high speed running past me by about 20 feet, dumped the dummy and bogged off for 45 minutes 

She's back on a long line.  Only allowed out of the house on a lead and will be practising STOP on the way to every hand fed meal for the next 2 months. 

Don't give up on his training.  It may take a very long time but you will get there.  For every good day with Coral we used to have 3 bad, it's now 1:2 and by the end of this summer I'm hopeful she will have stopped chasing (ok, by the end of next year  ).

Some of these cockers are wired like missiles.  Our training starts again next week but work is too busy until February, it feels like it's been a very long month without a lesson! I'm sure Gaz was as frustrated as you are but he is equipped to help with him.......it just takes time xx

[Londongirl]

I'm no expert on... well anything!... and my cocker is a pet show cocker, not a worker. But I see a lot of similarities with my dog Henry.

I've had him on the long line in fields for at least four months now. He turns straight back to me if I call or whistle, can turn away from other dogs (a big distraction) and even birds or squirrels if I spot them a second before he does. Playing fetch with a ball - I throw it a short distance and he reliably brings it back. But... OH took him out this weekend and twice he threw the ball much further than I normally do, close to the boundary of the area we normally work in. Henry hared after the ball, then went straight past and kept running. It's like once he hits a certain speed he can't stop.

I'm working on a stop, but he really struggles with it. I reinforce the whistle half-a-dozen times every walk, but sometimes when his ears are turned off, he'll ignore it. He stays on the lead for all other walks, and trots reasonably close to me on a loose lead, sniffing and snuffling. But if I unclipped that lead, he'd be off like a rocket.

I won't give up on the training, but there is a part of me that wonders if I'll ever be able to walk him off lead. Letting him out of my sight for even a short time is just not an option in suburban London. Other dogs and roads are a significant danger. So for now I am still incorporating the training into every walk, but I've decided to not focus on what may be an unattainable goal, because it's making me miserable. We have great walks with Henry either on the long line or attached to my belt on a 2 metre line. If that turns out in the long run that he can never go off lead, I have to accept it's not the end of the world.

[Pearly]

I think you and Katie both have the right view, some of these dogs are a real challenge. 

What I've noticed with my older cocker is that although she's always had a cracking recall, she was a pest at home, doing what she wanted in the garden and playing the "you call, I ignore" game......age seems to have helped hugely, she now comes in when called although I do sometimes have to add a NOW before she does!

I would advise not allowing free hunting at home or any form of self entertainment - the more independent your dog is the less they need you outside 

Have you tried sitting your dog up (at home indoors) using a soft voice and no hand movements/expression? Does he do it? The next step is to call him to you using your usual command but again, no expression, no raised voice........then turn you back on him and do the same......once he does that then you know that he really does know the commands.  Start to reintroduce the whistle and yes, this is going back to basics but it's worked for Coral.  My mistake was not continuing to do this over Christmas and making a fuss of her when she hadn't "earned" it!

Back to basics for us again.........particulalry as she had been off lead for around 3 weeks and was doing really well.

Im helping at a Field Trial later this month, it's both inspirational to see the standard that cockers (and their handlers) perform at but completely demoralising......Coral has so much potential and I know that it's me letting her down through inexperience although more than one (very) experienced dog handler (from the shoots, training and trialling....) have said they would have moved her on at 9 months when she starting to "bog-off" - makes me wonder if that's what happened to Jacko?

[WackoJacko]

Thankyou for your replies!
I am feeling a bit happier today, we've been out this morning playing ball & having a run around with his dog pals on the enclosed park.

I had a chat over the phone with another gundog trainer who offered to help last night- who basically said he disagrees with what the other 2 have been working with is on- I should disregard dummy work for now & concentrate solely on quartering, stop & turn whistles? So now I don't know what to think haha! Gaz said he thinks I need to be firmer with J & show him my displeasure, ear tugs & the like but I'm not really ok with doing that. I've booked a 1-2-1 with my first trainer we were seeing in 2 Sundays time to see what he thinks. One thing I've noticed is none of them agree with what the other has said!!

[bizzylizzy]

LG - I've been thinking about the lead on a belt for a while - problem is, Humphrey will be walking along ok but then will suddenly shoot forward and I'm a bit concerned that if he catches me unawares, he'll either pull me over or jolt my back. I've never actually seen one in use (except in youtube videos but I always reckon their dogs are high on valium!! ), - what's your experience re fors and against?

[sodpot2000]

I always thought that the belts (such as used for Cani-X) had a bungee cord rather than a lead, so that the shock would be absorbed. It should be more stable in theory because it is below your centre of gravity but I can see a jury-rig (as opposed to a proper harness) potentially causing lower back problems. I assume that is why the harnesses and bungees such as Ruffwear have cost an eye-watering amount!

[AlanT]

I'd suggest to those of you whose dog "disappears", that you get one of the now quite cheap trackers, that go on the collar. You can then watch them on your phone. This has got to reduce your anxiety.

I'm only worried about one thing when my dog is loose. That's THEFT.

I had the great advantage of starting at 12-weeks and did recall training by making him fetch a ball for reward.
Then I did scent-work. So at three he is totally focused on working with me and would not run off if he saw a field full of Chickens.

Most amusing to see him diving in the river right next to a Heron. Apparently Herons are invisible, as a are Swans.

It will be the early start I made, that is the key to this.

[Londongirl]

That's not really the point for me, Alan. It's not about being able to find him (although that's an issue once he's run off). It's about stopping him running off in the first place. I'm less worried about WHERE he is and more about what's happening when I can't see him.

For those who want to work their dogs, recall is a prerequisite. For pet dogs like mine who walk where there are a lot of other dogs and road dangers, it's essential for the safety of everyone. I need him to come back when he's called so there's no risk in the first place. He needs to be in sight and under control.

It's great that your dog still has great recall after an early start. I did all those things with Henry but he still went 'off message' at 9 months. I've lost count of the number of people who assume I didn't let him off and train his recall when he was a puppy, just because he is on a lead now.