Free hunting/recall troubles

[Londongirl]

LG - I've been thinking about the lead on a belt for a while - problem is, Humphrey will be walking along ok but then will suddenly shoot forward and I'm a bit concerned that if he catches me unawares, he'll either pull me over or jolt my back. I've never actually seen one in use (except in youtube videos but I always reckon their dogs are high on valium!! ), - what's your experience re fors and against?

I have a double-ended lead and just hook one end into a belt-loop on my jeans. He does dash off to the side or stop suddenly, but never with enough force to pull me off balance.

[Londongirl]

Have you tried sitting your dog up (at home indoors) using a soft voice and no hand movements/expression? Does he do it? The next step is to call him to you using your usual command but again, no expression, no raised voice........then turn you back on him and do the same......once he does that then you know that he really does know the commands.  Start to reintroduce the whistle and yes, this is going back to basics but it's worked for Coral.  My mistake was not continuing to do this over Christmas and making a fuss of her when she hadn't "earned" it!

Funnily enough, this is something I have been thinking about and was working on before the Christmas holidays. I often joke that Henry is half-trained in everything, but actually it's an issue. He will sit on voice command if I have eye contact, but I might have to ask him a few times. Sits even quicker if I used gesture alone. But doesn't stay sat very long, unless I very firmly tell him to stay. Won't sit if I just say the word in my normal voice. He HATES being told to lie down and sometimes refuses altogether. If he will do it, it's often slowly and reluctantly, like a slowly-deflating balloon sinking to the floor! I've been trying to teach him a down-stay for about a month now, and he can't stay longer than 20-30 seconds, even though I've been building it up slowly in increments of one second. He also still jumps all over visitors to the house which is embarrassing and frustrating.

So my current plan is to work on all the these behaviours at home until they are SOLID. Then re-introduce them outside the house. Limiting his access to the garden (almost always on the lead now) as he is stalking birds that have returned to make nests and the foxes that keep stealing his toys. And I'll continue with the recall training on the longline. One recommendation I've seen is to go on the chase WITH him rather than trying to hold him back, to reinforce the fact that he gets what he wants only when he's with me. Anyone have thoughts on this? Not sure it would be an option for a working dog, obviously.

[Emilyoliver]

One recommendation I've seen is to go on the chase WITH him rather than trying to hold him back, to reinforce the fact that he gets what he wants only when he's with me. Anyone have thoughts on this? Not sure it would be an option for a working dog, obviously.

Depends on how fast you can run 

(personally I'd not be haring around with my dog - he'd effectively be deciding where and when to hunt.  The object (at least with working dogs) is for you to tell them where and when to hunt.  Their reward for listening is that they find those birds they so badly want.  Being near you means they find birds IYSWIM?  That's why it's so damaging if they learn to hunt alone).

[Londongirl]

One recommendation I've seen is to go on the chase WITH him rather than trying to hold him back, to reinforce the fact that he gets what he wants only when he's with me. Anyone have thoughts on this? Not sure it would be an option for a working dog, obviously.

Depends on how fast you can run 

(personally I'd not be haring around with my dog - he'd effectively be deciding where and when to hunt.  The object (at least with working dogs) is for you to tell them where and when to hunt.  Their reward for listening is that they find those birds they so badly want.  Being near you means they find birds IYSWIM?  That's why it's so damaging if they learn to hunt alone).

Yes, I get that. This advice was specifically for dogs like mine who are pet dogs, not working, but with a prey drive. As they'll never actually catch anything with you in tow, it's more about getting the satisfaction of the chase without having to bog off to get it, and they get that satisfaction with you beside them. For us it's about chasing squirrels up trees in the local parkland, not working shoots or anything similar.

[Emilyoliver]

yes, but working or not - same principle applies. following your dog where it pleases is hardly likely to improve its obedience.  (I have had, and still have, show cockers as well as working workers).

[Londongirl]

yes, but working or not - same principle applies. following your dog where it pleases is hardly likely to improve its obedience.  (I have had, and still have, show cockers as well as working workers).

That's what I was wondering. I don't think the idea is to just let them lead ALL the time, but every so often to go together, chasing after squirrels or whatever. It comes from a trainer whose other advice on recall etc is very sensible and she says she does it herself with her own dogs with a high prey drive. 

[Emilyoliver]

perhaps I'm just a control freak then  .  Not sure how a dog would be able to work out when it's ok to chase stuff with you in tow, and when not.  But if it works for her, then so be it.  doesn't add up to me is all.  may also depend on what breed of dogs she has.

[Pearly]

perhaps I'm just a control freak then  .  Not sure how a dog would be able to work out when it's ok to chase stuff with you in tow, and when not.  But if it works for her, then so be it.  doesn't add up to me is all.  may also depend on what breed of dogs she has.

I agree..... my worry would be  that it then becomes a top game of "chase me" as there is absolutely no chance of me keeping up with rocket-paws let alone overtaking 

[Londongirl]

perhaps I'm just a control freak then  .  Not sure how a dog would be able to work out when it's ok to chase stuff with you in tow, and when not.  But if it works for her, then so be it.  doesn't add up to me is all.  may also depend on what breed of dogs she has.

I agree..... my worry would be  that it then becomes a top game of "chase me" as there is absolutely no chance of me keeping up with rocket-paws let alone overtaking 

Did I fail to mention this is done with the long line? That raises all sorts of other issues if you try it in woodland, of course.

I've now seen this method suggested by two different 'positive' trainers.

[JeffD]

perhaps I'm just a control freak then  .  Not sure how a dog would be able to work out when it's ok to chase stuff with you in tow, and when not.  But if it works for her, then so be it.  doesn't add up to me is all.  may also depend on what breed of dogs she has.

There are a few trainers around going down this route and to a degree I do this with Teal, very occasionally I let her chase a rabbit then stop her on the whistle but, and its a BIG BUT, Teal was steady for 3 years before I allowed this to happen.

The thinking on this I believe originated in the US, dogs are allowed to chase as a reward for not chasing, I have seen some video on this and it seems to work but the dogs were GSP's not spaniels, personally  I would never try this when training a dog, especially one that has already learnt to free hunt and I have trained a good few gun dogs.

The only time I let a dog chase is when they are very young and before proper training starts I do this to encourage the pup to start hunting and kick in the prey drive. This is all very controlled and as soon as the hunt drive kicks in it is not repeated.



 

[Helen]

I did this with Jarvis as a puppy - I had let him chase seagulls so I had to break the habit.  I ended up training a chase command and to be honest the novelty of being "allowed" to chase seagulls just wore thin for him so it worked for us  Once he was listening I added back in the stop and recall and he ended up being very steady - just longer to teach because of my own stupidity.

I didn't make the same mistake with Jago 

[JeffD]

I did this with Jarvis as a puppy - I had let him chase seagulls so I had to break the habit.  I ended up training a chase command and to be honest the novelty of being "allowed" to chase seagulls just wore thin for him so it worked for us  Once he was listening I added back in the stop and recall and he ended up being very steady - just longer to teach because of my own stupidity.

I didn't make the same mistake with Jago 

I have used seagulls to cure bird chasing dogs Helen take them to a beach and let them chase until they are tired a few days and they realise they are never going to catch one then like you stop and recall. I did have an ESS who was steady to game that never gave up chasing seagulls I think he just enjoyed it to much, funny thing if we were on the estuary shooting duck he took no notice of seagulls at all.   

[Emilyoliver]

I did this with Jarvis as a puppy - I had let him chase seagulls so I had to break the habit.  I ended up training a chase command and to be honest the novelty of being "allowed" to chase seagulls just wore thin for him so it worked for us  Once he was listening I added back in the stop and recall and he ended up being very steady - just longer to teach because of my own stupidity.

I didn't make the same mistake with Jago 

I have used seagulls to cure bird chasing dogs Helen take them to a beach and let them chase until they are tired a few days and they realise they are never going to catch one then like you stop and recall. I did have an ESS who was steady to game that never gave up chasing seagulls I think he just enjoyed it to much, funny thing if we were on the estuary shooting duck he took no notice of seagulls at all.

I was pleased to watch my young puppy chase a blackbird the other day - he is not overly brave in the big wide world yet.  So it was nice to see that beneath the nervousness is the instinct and inclination to give chase.  Saying that, he is very bonded to me and came straight back when I called him  .  So much depends on the dog's temperament as to what can/not be allowed.  And suffice to say I won't be letting him chase stuff on any kind of regular basis.

[Pearly]

I did this with Jarvis as a puppy - I had let him chase seagulls so I had to break the habit.  I ended up training a chase command and to be honest the novelty of being "allowed" to chase seagulls just wore thin for him so it worked for us  Once he was listening I added back in the stop and recall and he ended up being very steady - just longer to teach because of my own stupidity.

I didn't make the same mistake with Jago 

I have used seagulls to cure bird chasing dogs Helen take them to a beach and let them chase until they are tired a few days and they realise they are never going to catch one then like you stop and recall. I did have an ESS who was steady to game that never gave up chasing seagulls I think he just enjoyed it to much, funny thing if we were on the estuary shooting duck he took no notice of seagulls at all.

Pendine sands are six miles long...... Coral was close to breaking the land speed record but did at least come back to me