ignoring honey

[kb]

After my recent posts I decided that i need to make sure that Honey is being treated consistently ( particularly by me) at all time. After looking at the advice I had been given, I decided that it is time to make Honey work a little bit harder for the things she wants  so that she is not getting the impression that she rules the roost. We have been doing this anyway, but it is easy to let her away wth things without even realising it.

This morning she decided she wanted to play with me - but having read the advice I decided play should be on my terms. Whoever said it can lead to an increase in the bad behviour though was definitel right. I can't actually remember how she started it - but I pushed her away and went on doing what I was doing . She was not happy! She then started to bite the leg of my trousers (she does tend to get mouthy when she is playing at times). I toldher off firmly once and ignored her. I didn't want to shout too much as I thought she would see this as attention. After a few seconds however she walked away, picked up one of her own toys and trotted off. A few minutes later I called her to come, as i wanted to try and give her some attention on my terms.

She turned round and looked at me, toy still in her mouth, with the cheekiest look on her face, as if to say two can play at that game - she turned her back and walked away - cheeky rascal! I have to say I found myself laughing - even when I was ignoring her- because she was just so persistent. When i turned my head she would go to the other side.

She must have got the message though. I called her again after just a few seconds and she came bounding to me and sat to be stroked.

I think in many ways dogs must have the upper hand - I think they have been sent here to make us all look stupid! They know exactly what is going on.

[Penel]

By pushing her away / talking to her, in any way shape or form, you are still giving her attention.
Personally I'm not into ignoring dogs - and am not a huge fan of NILIF as I have heard it can make some dogs very depressed.  Mine all do things like sit for their dinner, and for their leads to be put on and off - but I don't make them sit before I cuddle them or play with them  - in my eyes its good manners rather than "who is boss" that matters....

[silkstocking]

By pushing her away / talking to her, in any way shape or form, you are still giving her attention.
Personally I'm not into ignoring dogs - and am not a huge fan of NILIF as I have heard it can make some dogs very depressed.  Mine all do things like sit for their dinner, and for their leads to be put on and off - but I don't make them sit before I cuddle them or play with them  - in my eyes its good manners rather than "who is boss" that matters....

I'm with you there 100% Penel!! 

[kb]

What would you suggest then when I can't stop to give her attention and she starts barking at me or biting my trousers - she is 11 months. If you have read my other threads you will see that we are having some behaviour problems with her. I can't give her attention all the time and i can't have her being aggressive when she does not get it. She does get loads of positive attention.

 I did not make her sit for a cuddle if that is what you understood - she was much calmer and when I started to stroke her she sat down to enjoy it - I was merely pointing out that she was much calmer and not biting or nipping for attention - sometime she even barks at me because I am talking on the phone!

I am now really confused!

[Penel]

What would you suggest then when I can't stop to give her attention and she starts barking at me or biting my trousers - she is 11 months.

In that situation I would suggest you walk away, or remove her into another room for a few minutes.  No eye contact, and no talking though.  That's what I would do....

[Cob-Web]

I think *ignoring* a dog is a very small part of NILIF - I prefer to ask Molo to sit/down etc. I do ask him to do this when he demands attention/cuddles, as I consider this to be good manners, just as I would expect my daughter to say excuse me before she started talking to me when I am busy    He will come and sit at my feet at the sofa, and he gets invited up for a cuddle - he used to leap up uninvited, but not all guests are in favour and we are still working well on this  . I suppose the time-out approach (walking away, or putting her in another room) is ignoring in its own way 

Penel, do you have any references about NILIF and depression? As you know I am a bit fan of the technique, and would be keen to find out how the depression was linked to NILIF, and the way in which the NILIF was applied. An established dog can experience an "extinction burst" when NILIF is first applied, as the dog learns that the rules have changes, and are consistant; but my experience is that this does peeter out, and the result on my case was a far more secure dog, who was consequently much less aggressive (and narrowly escaped being PTS  )

Oviously, Molo doesn't know any different, as we have always applied NILIF since he was a 10 week old puppy and came home with us......

[kb]

If I walk away she follows me barking or nipping at my ankles. This does not happen every time she wants to play - just when she is particularly excited.

When i put her in another room she scratches and barks until she is a terrible state. I don't know that I am in favour of time- outs as I don't really understand if the dog can fully appreciate why it is being placed in another room. As Honey is very nervous I do not really know how putting her in another room would alleviate the situation.Putting her in another room does not seem that different to looking away from her when she is barking at me - I think it is likely to heighten the tension andmakeit a bigger deal. I can't see either how I would get her there without communictaing with ehr in some way.

I am not being awkward - just confused.

[silkstocking]

What would you suggest then when I can't stop to give her attention and she starts barking at me or biting my trousers - she is 11 months. If you have read my other threads you will see that we are having some behaviour problems with her. I can't give her attention all the time and i can't have her being aggressive when she does not get it. She does get loads of positive attention.

 I did not make her sit for a cuddle if that is what you understood - she was much calmer and when I started to stroke her she sat down to enjoy it - I was merely pointing out that she was much calmer and not biting or nipping for attention - sometime she even barks at me because I am talking on the phone!

I am now really confused!

I would put Honey in time out ( in another room) if she is behaving like that to be honest ( but not for long) I wouldnt even say anything to her. Thats what I would do with my own dogs and the children in my class have a time out chair to sit on if I need it, it is rarely used because the children dont want to go to time out as much as dogs want when they begin to understnad it!!

[Cob-Web]

. I don't know that I am in favour of time- outs as I don't really understand if the dog can fully appreciate why it is being placed in another room.

Dogs are social animals, so being excluded is something they dislike. By placing them alone each time they do something you do not want them to do, they associate the (unwanted) behaviour with the unpleasant result (in the same way as Pavlov's dogs assoicated the bell with food). It can only succeed if the time out is immediate (within seconds of the unwanted behaviour), is for a very short time, and if you only return when the dog is quiet (even for a millisecond).

I really do urge you to contact one of the APDT Members if you have not already done so; it will become much clearer to *see* how to handle situations when it is demonstrated to you 

[silkstocking]

If I walk away she follows me barking or nipping at my ankles. This does not happen every time she wants to play - just when she is particularly excited.

When i put her in another room she scratches and barks until she is a terrible state. I don't know that I am in favour of time- outs as I don't really understand if the dog can fully appreciate why it is being placed in another room. As Honey is very nervous I do not really know how putting her in another room would alleviate the situation.Putting her in another room does not seem that different to looking away from her when she is barking at me - I think it is likely to heighten the tension andmakeit a bigger deal. I can't see either how I would get her there without communictaing with ehr in some way.

I am not being awkward - just confused.

Your confusion will only add to Honeys to be honest. I don't mean to sound blunt but this may, you need to decide a way to deal with it be it time out or NILF and stick to it, results wont happen istantly, but you will start to see results if you stick to one method which she will grow to understnad. Like I said I dont mean to be blunt but I onestly believe if you can make a descion about a method you want to use you will see results but you have to give it time.

EDITED TO ADD i have just reread your first post and see that you are looking to be more consistent with Honey, apologies for not noticing already!! I agree it is the way forward! As is decideding on a technique to use xxxxxx

[happydog]

I must admit I am a bit surprised at the responses so far. I read your post and thought 'yes, it's beginning to work for you'. At 11 months she is still learning what is acceptable behavior and what is not, and by telling her gently that you are not ready to give her your attention is exactly what I do with Fern. She comes and nudges me when she wants attention and I am working, so I stroke her and say 'later, go and sit down', which she does and then I say 'good girl'. At no time do I actually look at her, so she is not being rewarded with my full attention. I 'reward' her (if that is the right word) later when I am ready, by calling her to me exactly as you have done and giving her 20 minutes of play. I have always done this since she was a pup, and she understands completely. It works fine for me, cockers are more sensitive and intelligent than I thought was possible before I had one. Providing it's done sensitively and not aggressively so she doesn't think she is being told off all the time then I dont actually think you have done much wrong. NILIF is fine as a framework, but I don't rigidly follow it because I dont want to suppress  Ferns natural character and inventiveness. Not sure this makes complete sense...

[silkstocking]

I must admit I am a bit surprised at the responses so far. I read your post and thought 'yes, it's beginning to work for you'. At 11 months she is still learning what is acceptable behavior and what is not, and by telling her gently that you are not ready to give her your attention is exactly what I do with Fern. She comes and nudges me when she wants attention and I am working, so I stroke her and say 'later, go and sit down', which she does and then I say 'good girl'. At no time do I actually look at her, so she is not being rewarded with my full attention. I 'reward' her (if that is the right word) later when I am ready, by calling her to me exactly as you have done and giving her 20 minutes of play. I have always done this since she was a pup, and she understands completely. It works fine for me, cockers are more sensitive and intelligent than I thought was possible before I had one. Providing it's done sensitively and not aggressively so she doesn't think she is being told off all the time then I dont actually think you have done much wrong. NILIF is fine as a framework, but I don't rigidly follow it because I dont want to suppress  Ferns natural character and inventiveness. Not sure this makes complete sense...

Everyone has differnet levels on acceptance but I personally wouldnt be that happy with an 11 month old dog biting the leg of my trouser even in play, or barking at me when I am on the phone!!

[kb]

Rachel - could you give me any idea of how I do deal with the situation where Honey is demanding attention in a very forthright way. Iknow that you have read my other threads, and I am trying to weigh up all the advice and use the stuff that makes most sense.

I have been very soft with Honey - giving her little titbits, letting her on my knee and so on. I am just trying to teach her not to take me for granted. I ask her to sit before giving her a titbit (I started to do this a while ago anyway as common sense told me to). I now ask her to wait before getting up on my knee - a command that she already knows.

I thought that i had done the right thing with her today. She responded appropriately and quickly (much more quickly that if i had put her in another room).

I have a child with Asperger Syndrome (a form of autism) and the way to go here would often be to pick your battles. ignore the bad (where you can) and reward the good. Surely the premise of good dog training should be based on reward and encouragement. My understanding of NILIF is that by rewarding the good behaviours you are teaching your dog, your dog is hopefully going to develop into a well mannered, well behaved dog. The thing the dog wants -play, sitting on your knee and so on is the reward for the good behaviour.


I am not happy with the behaviour that is why I am trying to change it.

"I would put Honey in time out ( in another room) if she is behaving like that to be honest ( but not for long) I wouldnt even say anything to her. Thats what I would do with my own dogs and the children in my class have a time out chair to sit on if I need it, it is rarely used because the children dont want to go to time out as much as dogs want when they begin to understnad it!!"
Posted on: Today at 07:55:38 PMPosted by: kb 


I am glad I am not one of the children in your class - having a child with special needs I believe that time out should be used to calm down and never as a punishment - I think that should work for dogs aswell

[happydog]

Everyone has differnet levels on acceptance but I personally wouldnt be that happy with an 11 month old dog biting the leg of my trouser even in play, or barking at me when I am on the phone!!

But Kb said her response worked. I thought that was the point of the post? Or am I being a bit dense tonight?

She then started to bite the leg of my trousers (she does tend to get mouthy when she is playing at times). I toldher off firmly once and ignored her. I didn't want to shout too much as I thought she would see this as attention. After a few seconds however she walked away, picked up one of her own toys and trotted off.

She must have got the message though. I called her again after just a few seconds and she came bounding to me and sat to be stroked.

I think in many ways dogs must have the upper hand - I think they have been sent here to make us all look stupid! They know exactly what is going on.

[silkstocking]

Rachel - could you give me any idea of how I do deal with the situation where Honey is demanding attention in a very forthright way. Iknow that you have read my other threads, and I am trying to weigh up all the advice and use the stuff that makes most sense.

I have been very soft with Honey - giving her little titbits, letting her on my knee and so on. I am just trying to teach her not to take me for granted. I ask her to sit before giving her a titbit (I started to do this a while ago anyway as common sense told me to). I now ask her to wait before getting up on my knee - a command that she already knows.

I thought that i had done the right thing with her today. She responded appropriately and quickly (much more quickly that if i had put her in another room).

I have a child with Asperger Syndrome (a form of autism) and the way to go here would often be to pick your battles. ignore the bad (where you can) and reward the good. Surely the premise of good dog training should be based on reward and encouragement. My understanding of NILIF is that by rewarding the good behaviours you are teaching your dog, your dog is hopefully going to develop into a well mannered, well behaved dog. The thing the dog wants -play, sitting on your knee and so on is the reward for the good behaviour.


I am not happy with the behaviour that is why I am trying to change it.

"I would put Honey in time out ( in another room) if she is behaving like that to be honest ( but not for long) I wouldnt even say anything to her. Thats what I would do with my own dogs and the children in my class have a time out chair to sit on if I need it, it is rarely used because the children dont want to go to time out as much as dogs want when they begin to understnad it!!"
Posted on: Today at 07:55:38 PMPosted by: kb 


I am glad I am not one of the children in your class - having a child with special needs I believe that time out should be used to calm down and never as a punishment - I think that should work for dogs aswell

Theres no need to be rude! I wasnt rude to you!! I am a well respected teacher with excellent ratings from ofsted amongst many other proffesional extras!!!

I have worked with children with aspergers syndrome and although I agree time out wouldnt work for them it does work with children who do not have special needs!!

I think I'll bail out as you are clearly not looking for advice from me!!