ignoring honey

[kb]

Honey is on James Wellbeloved and has been since we got her. Occasionally she gets hpmecooked meals - chicken, rice and different types of veg. She also loves fersh fruit -grapes,apple and banana - we would sometimes use these as treats/rewards. I have occasionally given her rawhide chews and someone told me these can lead to dogs being a bit hyper. She can be a bit of a food thief so we need to watc her diet in this way.

 She is walked 2- 3 times daily and gets regular short bursts of training an play. She often gets off lead play with other dogs as well.

 Alot of the difficulties we have had have been curtailing inappropriate play with 2 small children at home. She has very settled times as well as difficult times. I am at home alone with her during the day . The worst time would be in the afternoons when the children are all home from school. She tends to be very excitable in play and easily becomes overstimulated.

In the evenings when things are quieter she will settle for long periods.

To be honest over the past month or so there have been longer settled periods. Tonight she even settled in her bed and stayed there while we prepared and ate our meal!

She is not boisterous as I describe in my posts all of the time, but when she is, she really is.

[Magic Star]

She also loves fersh fruit -grapes,apple and banana - we would sometimes use these as treats/rewards

Hope you don't me saying, that you should never give a dog grapes, they are highly toxic to dogs.  I didn't know this either until a friend kindly told me, I was shocked  

Hope you don't think im interfeering, I just wanted to let you know

[Cob-Web]

Alot of the difficulties we have had have been curtailing inappropriate play with 2 small children at home. She has very settled times as well as difficult times. I am at home alone with her during the day . The worst time would be in the afternoons when the children are all home from school. She tends to be very excitable in play and easily becomes overstimulated.

In the evenings when things are quieter she will settle for long periods.

To be honest over the past month or so there have been longer settled periods. Tonight she even settled in her bed and stayed there while we prepared and ate our meal!

She is not boisterous as I describe in my posts all of the time, but when she is, she really is.

I remember when Molo was younger there were times when I wasn't sure who was worse; Molo or my daughter  they can really wind each other up, can't they; especially when one or other is over-tired 

From all of your posts about Honey, it sound like she is a bright, bouncy puppy - who is now fully grown and hasn't quite learnt what is expected of her I am sure that a combination of maturity and the training you have been doing wil begin to pay off

One thing I noticed with Molo is that as he got older, it took longer to notice the results of my training - he learnt to sit at a few weeks old within a day or two - but it took a week or more to teach him to wait for his dinner when we began to train this at about 18 months old  I suppose this is where the saying "you can't teach old dogs new tricks" comes from; I'm not saying Honey won't learn new things, as I am sure she will - but it may not come as quick as some of the things she learnt when she was younger 

[kb]

Thanks for the advice aout the grapes I had no idea about that  - someone also told me onions were highly toxic to dogs, Do you know anything about that.

Honey took on new commands quickly when she was younger as well - and amazingly still remembers some of the ones we use infrequently.

I got my "Culture Clash" book today and spent time working today playing tug of war - a game she loves, but people were always telling me I should not play.However it has always been hard to get her to release her toy - so we spent time today just practising that and she was doing it beautifully - tonight however I tried it again and we were back to the beginning. She has always been quite good at the leave it command and we have seen a huge improvement here.

Today she stole the girls' skipping rope (stealing is one of her favourite pastimes - a common trait in cockers I think) i asked her to give and she did that as well. I took it off her and put it up high. She was still trying to get it though - I told her to leave it and she got down and went off and got one of her own chew toys. I was really proud of her.

Some times I panic about things and the problems we have are certainly worth worrying about - but there are loads of small changes in her behaviour. I think we are making headway.

[Magic Star]

Thanks for the advice aout the grapes I had no idea about that  - someone also told me onions were highly toxic to dogs, Do you know anything about that.

Yes they are, you can read about it here

http://www.petalia.com.au/Templates/StoryTemplate_Process.cfm?specie=Dogs&story_no=257

Hard to believe that something we eat daily could be so harmful to our pets isn't it

[silkstocking]

Thanks for the advice aout the grapes I had no idea about that  - someone also told me onions were highly toxic to dogs, Do you know anything about that.

Yes they are, you can read about it here

http://www.petalia.com.au/Templates/StoryTemplate_Process.cfm?specie=Dogs&story_no=257

Hard to believe that something we eat daily could be so harmful to our pets isn't it

There are loads of things we eat daily that are harmful to dogs its frighteneing eh Em, there is a list on here somewhere

[Top Barks]

I have been having all sorts of problems getting on here recently so I'll see if I can get this post done before my pc konks out again!
As some of you know I am for my sins a dog trainer and as a matter of fact I had to deal with an attention seeking ankle biting 10 month old Cairn Terrier just today.
The dog was also jumping up at the owners and visitors and had a general lack of manners.
The way I have started to deal with this problem is to temporarily attach the dog who by the way is very bright and as I found out today just a joy to teach to a house line.
Actually today I used a six ft training lead but it was all I had.
We started doing a clicker session with the dog and I started rewarding the dog for anything desireable (sits downs etc) and every time the dog started nipping or jumping my foot went on the lead to restrict its movement.
The dog of her own free will decided that with my foot where it was that the most comfortable position to be in was in a down for which she was imediatley rewarded.
I could have used time out if neccessary and things had got to bad by just picking up the lead and saying nothing whilst leading her from the room, but I found it much more constructive by restricting the dogs movement so as the best thing to do for her was lie down.
Being a clever dog within 5 minutes she had cottoned on and we made some real progress.
I believe that timeouts have their place in behaviour modification as much for the trainer as for the dog and I also believe that owners and trainers should look to move the dogs focus on to a behaviour that can be rewarded at the time of the crime being committed rather than just looking to punish the dog.
When it comes to Nilif I suppose I conform  more to SILAF. (somethings in life are free as long as the dog don't take the mickey) for instance I would not ignore my dog if he came up to me with his toy and asked me to play.
If I want I play, If I don't feel that way inclined I say sorry not now and carry on with what I'm doing.
My dogs usually perform a behaviour to get a treat, but sometimes they get one just for being my buddies  who I live with.
Everyone has their own way of doing things and if you train and play and generally spend quality time with your dogs you will be on the road to a fabulous relationship.
Train your dogs to live by your rules but also educate yourself about doggie ettiquete, behaviour and the way our four footed friends learn.
The more you understand your dog and what he does the better his life will be.
Hope some of these ramblings help
Mark

[Penel]

You could try "naming" her toys so that when she has stolen something she shouldn't have, you can ask her to go and get something else instead - its just another way of rewarding her for playing with her own toys, rather than the "contraband"   ones !
Do you have a kong for her - that you could stuff with either her food, or other "natural" treats-  so that when the excitable time starts, you could encourage her to go and "unstuff" her kong instead.  Is she crate trained ?  perhaps if she is, you could pop her in her crate to do her kong, so that there is no chance of her getting disturbed by the kids when she is working on it !

[Cob-Web]

When it comes to Nilif I suppose I conform  more to SILIF (somethings in life are free as long as the dog don't take the mickey) for instance I would not ignore my dog if he came up to me with his toy and asked me to play.
If I want I play, If I don't feel that way inclined I say sorry not now and carry on with what I'm doing.
My dogs usually perform a behaviour to get a treat, but sometimes they get one just for being my buddies  who I live with.

Mark - how do you feel about NILIF in general? I have seen such brilliant results from the technique when applied appropriately that I have regularly recommended it as a starting point to a lot of COL members and others; and am now very concerned about Penel and Shona's comments regarding depression 
I wonder if it is indeed going to be one of those dog training approaches that is going to be considered outdated and possibly barbaric when looked back on in the future 

[Top Barks]

The same owner also bought a kong from me today as her dog had been chewing chair legs in the kitchen.
The best dog toy ever in my oppinion!
Mark

[kb]

Thanks for the advice Mark.It makes a lot of sense.

We do have a kong for her and we also play hide and seek games with her and so on. When she steals something (usually pants, socks, letters,biscuits and the list goes on), I usually ask her to give it up for an interesting alternative - food reward or her favourite toy. Sometimes I don't have time to get a fun excahange for her and I call her excitedly and try to distract her and give her lots of praise. I think the problem is until the last few weeks we were just not doing this consistently and maybe opting to chase her. I suppose you do not notice the transition from puppy stealing out of curiosity to stealing initiate some kind of game.

When she was younger she had a puppy pen which was fantastic and when she became tired and stressed she could always go in there.However she started to jump out of it and we thought this was a dangerous pastime for her!?! i do supervise very closely the contact with the children and am quite definite about them giving her space to do her own thing.

We have always trained using rewards and initiall y used the clicker also. I suppose it is easy to become complacent and discontinue the training because you seem to have mastered a certain command.

I suppose it is about achieving a balance;until recently Honey has been used to the EILIF method (everything in life is free). I think I gave my thread an unfortunate title as I would not usually ignore her when she wants to play, but I want her to learn to wait sometimes and not throw atantrum when she has to. She and i spent a lot of time together today - just hanging out. Occasionally she started to nip at my trousers when we were in the garden and I told her off firmly and stood still until she stopped - then I would move again, she would nip, I would stop. I made very slow progress across the garden - after about 3 times however she stopped. I praised her and threw her favourite toy for her to fetch. Once she had the toy she was not interested in my trousers. At other times she lay at my feet or lay on her back on the trampoline in the sun (not a big one I hasten to add, just one of the little tiny toddler ones).

Yes, we had a very positive day today - I must say she loves to be in the garden - watching the birds, chasing the cat(!!!), barking at the seesaw when she tipped it with her nose and it moved. She was very chilled this evening. Maybe I was more relaxed too!

Anyway i do ramble on - thanls for the advice!

Penel what do you mean when you say natural treats - I do worry about giving her brandname treats and so on - I sometimes use littlepieces of cooked chicken, fruit, cheese and so on. I read somewhere dogs love peanut butter - but I do not like givingher foods like this that have been processed for humans. Sometimes I just use her own kibble.

[PennyB]

By pushing her away / talking to her, in any way shape or form, you are still giving her attention.
Personally I'm not into ignoring dogs - and am not a huge fan of NILIF as I have heard it can make some dogs very depressed.  Mine all do things like sit for their dinner, and for their leads to be put on and off - but I don't make them sit before I cuddle them or play with them  - in my eyes its good manners rather than "who is boss" that matters....

I agree with Penel but then  I have never had a problem with my dogs and some methods suit others....

I can appreciate this when things are working really well but having looked after foster dogs with behaviour problems then sometimes these things do work, and in some dogs being a bit depressed is the least of their problems short term. I use NILIF but only when its needed.

[sarahp]

When it comes to Nilif I suppose I conform  more to SILAF. (somethings in life are free as long as the dog don't take the mickey) for instance I would not ignore my dog if he came up to me with his toy and asked me to play.
If I want I play, If I don't feel that way inclined I say sorry not now and carry on with what I'm doing.
My dogs usually perform a behaviour to get a treat, but sometimes they get one just for being my buddies  who I live with.
 

Mark I am sooooooooooooo glad you said that!!  I have used some Nilif tactics but mainly as a substitute for please and thankyou, I think manners are important but I have never felt comfortable about all of Nilif.  The idea that everything has to be earned seemed a bit OTT so I never even bothered with that bit!!  I too am of the opinion that actually they are my mates and as such have the right to make some of their own decisions - but it is good to have my thoughts concurred with by someone who I respect    Thought maybe I'd missed the point somewhere and everyone understood it except me 

[Cob-Web]

The idea that everything has to be earned seemed a bit OTT so I never even bothered with that bit!! 

As Penny says, this is OK if you have a dog that is well balanced/behaved (a mate), but if a dog has behavior problems, that you are comitted to resolving, then introducing *SILIF* is far less likely to have any effect that NILIF.

Once the problems have been resolved (or in Molo's case, once he had matured and understood the house rules), then in some cases it might not do any harm to let NILIF slip occasionally  Some dogs (like Sheba, my previous rescue) do require those boundaries throughout their lives - I could always tell if my OH had been *soft* with her, as her aggression re-escalated She was certainly not depressed in the long term - although she made her displeasure clear when we first introduced it; comparing her immediately before, and 6 months after introducing NILIF, it was clear she was far less anxious and stressed

My concern would be the application of *SILIF* as a behaviour modification technique, when consistency is the one of the most important requirements for training dogs 

[lyn]

wow loads of conflicting advise ;)as an owner of a devil pup :lol:i have to admit i use bits and pieces of training techniches(sp)some NILIF some time outs.have to admit the time outs were really awful both for myself and paddy.they were kept for really bad behaviour only.paddy is also 11 months and has calmed down an awful lot lately though i suspect this is due to grieving for millie.he was awful in the vets yesterday,really quite naughty coz he didn't want that thingy stuck in his sore ear.the vet asked me if i had any concerns about his aggression >:(i was shocked as he wasn't being aggressive just in pain.he was very wriggly and kept trying to move my hand away with his mouth.it's easy for people to give advise kb,its harder though when you are living with an unruly puppy.just do what you think will work for you and honey.everyone here is truly trying to help you.we just have different ways of dealing with things.i do agree that NILIF can cause depression(or maybe it's just sulking)in some dogs(paddy being one of them)it only lasted about a week and like a lot on here i relaxed it a lot though i still think it is sometimes the lesser of two evils.it is important that dogs learn some basic manners but, each dog is different and what may work for one may be the wrong approach for another.