Author Topic: Mikey isn't getting it!  (Read 4695 times)

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Offline tiffanyheth

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Mikey isn't getting it!
« on: June 30, 2006, 12:00:40 AM »
 >:( Please help, Mikey is my one year old male Cocker.  We have had him since he was 6 weeks old and I am at my wit's end.  He just isn't clicking with house-breaking.  We take him out very frequently,  have crate trained him, and yet he still goes in the house.  Its BM and pee...and its causing quite the stress in my marriage.  We can't enjoy this dog fully b/c we don't trust him to roam the house, sleep in our bed, or be on our furniture because he potties everywhere.  Even on our bed!!! My husband and I are frustrated with one another on the issue and I can't take the tension! Please help! Is it because he is a Cocker?? Is it because I am doing something wrong? (I've house broken several dogs and I have never had this problem before.  Please help ASAP....I may be looking for Mikey a new home if something doesn't change!

Offline TinaK

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Re: Mikey isn't getting it!
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2006, 06:08:14 AM »
Is he your first Cocker? I've never heard that being a "breed thing". How often do you take him out? We got our puppy housebroken at about 4 mo. It was crazy, but I had to take him out every 20 minutes!!!!!!! Not joking. It was SO exhausting... and it was winter in the northern US. It was very cold for me and the pup. Going out every 20 mins was THE ONLY way to keep him away from doing it in the house. I did the 20 min thing until it looked like he got what I wanted from him, then I just extended the time. He's 6 mo. he can go 5 hours alone-runnig around free in the house.

You probably did this with your other dogs, but exaggerate your happiness when he does the right thing (and give him something REAL good and smelly as a reward... like cheese?), and be REALLY angry and ignore him when he goes in the house. Also, make sure the cleaning stuff really cleans the smell out.

Don't clean up in-front of him, his mother did that, and that meant "good one son, i'll clean." maybe that's a bunch of BS, but anyway.

IMPORTANT: Don't let him out of your site, get baby gates, so that you can anticipate and see his signs.

I kept my pup in a crate all day I was at work, I'd come back home for lunch to run and play with him, and pee, and then back in the crate.

Does your dog go in the crate?

Offline cazza

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Re: Mikey isn't getting it!
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2006, 08:36:21 AM »
Welcome to COL

We took our pup out every 15 - 20 min also.
We also took her out after a play session, or any other form of excitement. this helped immensly. We praise her really well for going outside, (not so much with treats now, shes 4 1/2 months)

I think it was the continuity and putting her out after excitement and lots of praise,

I expect you did all this with your other dogs ;) Have you still got other dogs? Is he playing with them and getting over excited? This is what we had
The play would stop and if you didn't get her out low and behold a wet patch

As TinaK says make sure you use a cleaner which really cleans the smell out. Hard as they can smell where you walked a couple of hours ago ;)
Good luck let us know how you get on

Offline Pammy

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Re: Mikey isn't getting it!
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2006, 08:42:48 AM »
Am I right in thinking you are based in America? Some of the terminology you use suggests that you are - or are from there.

The first thing that struck me was that you got him when he was 6 weeks old. This is considered too young in the UK with the KC advocating 8 weeks. This extra two weeks can be vital in a young puppy's development. Puppies homed that young in the UK suggest they have come from a less than reputable establishment which might suggest other issues which can go some way to explain the difficulties in toilet training. However there can be other reasons for homing so young - but it might still give rise to long term difficulties.

However, you need to go right back to basics with your boy and treat him as if he was a new 8 week old puppy.

Have a look at the COL FAQ on house-training, and if you haven't already, get yourself a copy of the book - The Perfect Puppy by Gwen Bailey - dont know if it's available in the Sates - but it's one we swear by.
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Offline PennyB

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Re: Mikey isn't getting it!
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2006, 10:58:55 AM »
Am just wondering that while he's now got into the habit of going inside he may also be marking now as well.

How long is he left for during the day.

It is very important to make sure you use a cleaner that will get rid of the smell --- I think its a hot biological soap solution, or 'Simple solution' is very good and more convenient as well (which I think is a US product).

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Offline TinaK

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Re: Mikey isn't getting it!
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2006, 06:59:44 PM »
Yeah, I think you should start over-go back to basics so to speak. even if it's marking. I would forget about working on his blader control just yet, step one is to make him realize that it's real bad to do it in the house. Step 2 would be working on extending the time. My trainer told me that taking a pup out every 20 mins doesn't do good, becuase it doesn't teach him to hold it, but I did it anyway. I didn't want to set him up to fail, and I think it worked so far.  :D

Offline michelle123

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Re: Mikey isn't getting it!
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2006, 11:57:26 AM »
Yep the 20 minute rule worked with us.  Admittedly it was hard and with it being winter, very cold & wet  >:(

However, even when we thought he would never get it, he did.  Same with kids, a bit of routine & it just clicks.  We used to go aboslutely mad when Blue went.  We gave him little treats when he went & he soon started "squeezing" his wees out to get a treat every time  :005: :005: Then he started getting a little on the fat side, so treats were limited to No. 2's only, then restricted to when he went to the door.
Even now I give him praise when he goes :005:
I can understand that this is causing friction because it did in our house, especially over the Christmas period when both children & OH were at home & routines go out of the window >:( ;) :005: 
Good luck

Offline cmoonx

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Re: Mikey isn't getting it!
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2006, 08:41:48 PM »
TinaK,
You mentioned that you left your pup in his crate while you were at work. How long did you leave him in there for?  :huh: My OH and I are having a big problem with our 4-month old puppy because we both work. I come home for lunch in the middle of the day and he almost always has gone poo and pee on the floor.  >:( We leave him in the utility room with a baby gate, so he has a bit of freedom. We think if we if we leave him in the crate it will stop this, but I've been worried about leaving him in there for so long. What would you, or anyone else, suggest? Any advice would really help!
Thanks.

Offline CraftySam

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Re: Mikey isn't getting it!
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2006, 09:03:06 PM »
TinaK,
 My OH and I are having a big problem with our 4-month old puppy because we both work. I come home for lunch in the middle of the day and he almost always has gone poo and pee on the floor.  >:( We leave him in the utility room with a baby gate, so he has a bit of freedom. We think if we if we leave him in the crate it will stop this, but I've been worried about leaving him in there for so long. What would you, or anyone else, suggest? Any advice would really help!
Thanks.

Unfortunately you may well find it harder to train and slower to train your puppy if you are both working and away from home for most of the day. I have crate trained all my puppies and they have all been toilet trained by 3-4 months. But I'm at home all day so I can take them out at regular times and they then get to learn that outsides the place to do it.  It might take a bit longer for your puppy to grasp that as he is in the habit of going inside during the day.
By crate training them it does teach them control as they don't want to mess where they sleep. The maximium amount of time I would leave a puppy in a crate is 3 hours. Do you have a neighbour, friend or relative that could pop in during the morning/afternoon to let him out?
Is he clean overnight? When you are at home be extra vigilant for signs of needing to go like circling or sniffing the ground alot.   
I think you'll have to be patient and stay with it as it will probably take a bit longer. Make sure you give your puppy lots of enthusiastic praise when it does go outside. I reward mine with a squirt of Primula cheese.  They only ever get that as a reward for going outside, and I've found that helps too.
Puppies vary massively and some house train in a few weeks and some take up to six months or more. Stick with it, it will happen eventually! ;)
Sam is mum to - Sapphi (working black Lab 5 1/2 yrs), Max (Golden Retriever 4 yrs) Morgan (American Cocker 2 1/2yrs) and mum in spirit to Barney (English Cocker 3 1/2 yrs now living in Scotland)

Offline PennyB

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Re: Mikey isn't getting it!
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2006, 10:51:11 PM »
TinaK,
You mentioned that you left your pup in his crate while you were at work. How long did you leave him in there for?  :huh: My OH and I are having a big problem with our 4-month old puppy because we both work. I come home for lunch in the middle of the day and he almost always has gone poo and pee on the floor.  >:( We leave him in the utility room with a baby gate, so he has a bit of freedom. We think if we if we leave him in the crate it will stop this, but I've been worried about leaving him in there for so long. What would you, or anyone else, suggest? Any advice would really help!
Thanks.

I think its something you have to live with for now and just keep trying until he gets it but it will just take longer thats all. I think if you're out all day it would be cruel to leave him in the crate for so long, even with coming home at lunchtime. If you can I would get a sitter to come in or take him round to a dogsitter for day.
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Offline miche

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Re: Mikey isn't getting it!
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2006, 10:56:33 PM »
No advice - just wanted to say cool name :D.

I have a 1 yr old male cocker called Mikey too.
Love Michele, Mikey and Herbiexx


Offline TinaK

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Re: Mikey isn't getting it!
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2006, 12:22:40 AM »
Quote
TinaK,
You mentioned that you left your pup in his crate while you were at work. How long did you leave him in there for?  huh My OH and I are having a big problem with our 4-month old puppy because we both work. I come home for lunch in the middle of the day and he almost always has gone poo and pee on the floor.  Angry We leave him in the utility room with a baby gate, so he has a bit of freedom. We think if we if we leave him in the crate it will stop this, but I've been worried about leaving him in there for so long. What would you, or anyone else, suggest? Any advice would really help!
Thanks.

If all medical reasons are ruled out, then here I go...


We left him in the crate for 4 hours. I mean, I found that 41/2 was too long for him in the beginning. I don't think you should worry about exercise at this point, he will get it when you come home.

i also don't think that it's cruel do leave a pup in the crate while housetraining. If anything else, it's a "rule", or something that remind him that he is a dog. Rules are good-depending on context.

One thing that would help you train.... I think that changing the environment does something to dogs. It's like they are more attentive to you and your needs or something. Maybe a bit surprised or insecure, and that makes them look up to you... Even with peeing, in a familiar environment, they just do it, but in a new environment it takes them longer to find a spot, sniff it all out, etc., - use that to your advantage!!

Get the dog out of the house- your OH can take him out to hang with friends for a few hours. Clean the hell out of your floor/house, his favorite peeing spots if he has them and old spots. I used a cleaner with natural bacteria - it eats odor causing bacteria. Jack only had a handful accidents in the house, but I polished the wood floors we have here. I also like to move the furniture about :) so, I rearranged the plants and furniture - I am a bit manic when I clean.
Not sure how you can apply this advise, but changing the environment helps. After this, your pup should smell the new scents and it WILL take him a bit longer to decide on a spot.

Take a couple of days off of work. It sounds stupid taking time off for a puppy, but in a long run it's a good idea. The plan is to not to let  your dog fail for 2 days or so, and for you to figure out how long he can last in a crate-- and get the time up to 4 hours, so that you can go to work (4 hours worked good for me because I could then come and see him over my lunch break.)

While at home, use baby gates to confine him in the house - you have to be able to keep an eye on him. Mine HAD to go every 20 mins - after getting up from sleep, after running around like mad - if he ran around very mad, then the peeing time was every 15 mins. It was very  intense and tiresome for me, but it didn't last long. Don't let him out of your site, and take him out more often than needed. Your puppy is older, and I don't think that he'll be running around too much like a mad man...

Do you have a word for no.1 and no.2 ? Ours is "business". When I caught Jack circling about-just ready to do it, I commanded - "Outside!", he knew that meant to ran to the door. Next, when we are out I command: "Business!". If he gets distracted repeat the command to remind him that that's why you are there. If he doesn't know the command for "business", say "business" WHILE he is doing it. Then, when he is done - "Good business, good boy". sounds stupid, but that's how i did it. I exaggerated my happiness, but i was calm.

Next step, when jack learned what business meant, and that he is supposed to do it outside:
- when I THINK he has to go, I ask "Outside?". If his tale is wagging, and he starts heading towards the door, it means that he wants to go. If he continues doing what he's doing, he doesn't need to.


Noticing his signs is very important. You can also condition your dog to give you signs. Jack sometimes does a sneeze. it's a cute doggy sneeze... I decided to make that a command. He sneezed once in front of me, and I happily said: "outside?" like I always did before. Ignore his reaction, 'cause he doesn't know at this point what is going on. Take him out to do business.

You might not hear him sneezing in a while, but when you do, repeat - "Outside?", and take him out. Jack's learned to sneeze when he needs to go, and poo especially. He'd sneeze in my face if he wants to go do no.2. In the mornings he'd stand there in the middle of the room looking at me, making sneezy sounds :)

I also hang  a bell by the door, I taught him to ring that. He doesn't use it a lot - not a much as sneezing.

While you are at home with him, leave him in the crate for 30 mins, go to a store or something. when you come back don't greet him in any way. Open the crate and say - "outside". when he does business greet him. He'd probably do it just to hear your greetings.

Next, extend the time you are out - little by little. till it gets to 4 hours.

When you come back for lunch, make sure you take him out before he goes back to his crate. Don't put him in if he didn't. Because while you were there with him, he probably played and then drunk a lot of water... So, make sure that you stop playing 15 mins BEFORE you have to go back to work. That will give his bladder a chance to fill up. you can use this quiet time to go over commands like down-stay, or sit, or whatever.

this is what i did with a small puppy- hopefully you'll take some tips for yours.

don't let him fail for a few days-he'll remember then that the last time he went was outside, the time before that - outside- he'll ask for it himself soon.

ps. give him a candy before going to the crate. jack learned that as soon as a got a treat ready - crate time. he'd go there himself and drop down tired and happy.

Offline Jane S

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Re: Mikey isn't getting it!
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2006, 08:54:02 AM »
Sorry Tina but when you say you crate your puppy for 4 hours and then come home at lunchtime, does that mean you then crate him again until you come home after work in the afternoon? If so, that adds up to a lot of time alone in a crate :o I feel 4 hours in a crate is unacceptable for a young puppy let alone double that if you're talking about a full working day with just a break at lunchtime. In my opinion, this is not using a crate for what it was intended ie short periods of containment only. I understand that crating for long periods is not uncommon in the US but this is something I personally do not agree with and would not want this practice encouraged on this forum (incidentally the ASPCA also shares this view in relation to puppies though seems to think it's ok to leave an adult dog crated for 8 hours!!) I'm not against full time workers having puppies but the best way to make this work is to do what our other members do, work out a schedule with puppy sitters and dog walkers etc so that a puppy is never left alone for too long when young.
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Offline TinaK

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Re: Mikey isn't getting it!
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2006, 02:45:30 PM »
Quote
Sorry Tina but when you say you crate your puppy for 4 hours and then come home at lunchtime, does that mean you then crate him again until you come home after work in the afternoon?
Yes I did that. I did crating to get his bladder under control. I stopped crating Jack when he was about 4 mo. old, because he could hold it for 4 hours without being in the crate. When he'd go in, he was a content and tired puppy.

It worked out perfectly for me. Sorry to dissapoint all COL memebres!


Quote
I'm not against full time workers having puppies but the best way to make this work is to do what our other members do, work out a schedule with puppy sitters and dog walkers etc so that a puppy is never left alone for too long when young.

If members can arrange it with a puppy sitter and a dog walker-that's perfect. However, owners should now how other people in the same situation have dealt with it. There are a lot of resources and trainers that recommend crating up to 4-6 hours at a time while housbreaking puppies. Of course getting a sitter would be nice, I just can't imagine how that would have worked for Jack if he had to go every 20 mins - I would have to pay 40h/week and I can't afford it.

Are you against leaving puppies alone for a long periods of time? Or against leaving them in a crate for long peroid of time?

Offline PennyB

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Re: Mikey isn't getting it!
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2006, 02:54:33 PM »
I think Jane (as I am) suggested against crating for long periods especially if you think they may then often be crated overnight (even overnight I would get up to see to the pups).

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