Mikey isn't getting it!

[TinaK]

ps. after Jack had 'graduated' from a crate and had been allowd to run around while we're at work, I was expecting to see furniture chewed up, wallpaper torn, etc. - i never did. when I come home to see him, he stretches and yawns, the cat is asleep on the couch too... gets me to thinking that he chills out while we are gone. I'm happy to see him being content when alone.

[PennyB]

Yeah, I think you should start over-go back to basics so to speak. even if it's marking. I would forget about working on his blader control just yet, step one is to make him realize that it's real bad to do it in the house. Step 2 would be working on extending the time. My trainer told me that taking a pup out every 20 mins doesn't do good, becuase it doesn't teach him to hold it, but I did it anyway. I didn't want to set him up to fail, and I think it worked so far. 

Tiny pups have small bladders anyway so difficult for them to hold it. As you say 20 min or just a good regular interval works along with praise so they learn to go where we want them to, which is different from just holding on.

[Mind you  I've had 6 week old pups here on foster and to be honest they can't even hold on for 20 min as their bladders are so small but I don't even bother with a 'proper' housetraining regime until a little while later as its more important at that age for me to concentrate on their settling in, and whats a few tiny puddles.]

[Pammy]

Crates like most things have a time and a place. I used them when mine were young - but in the way Jane describes- for short periods of containment only, they were never used as a toilet training tool - they don't work like that.

There is only one fair way to toilet train a dog and that is by spending time and patience with them offering praise when they get it right and ignoring when they get it wrong.

Imo - if people work full time and can't put suitable puppy care arrangements in place then they should not have a puppy. They should wait until their lives can accommodate a puppy. If your life changes as tends to happen then that's different and we all have to face change and then do what we can at the time. I also appreciate there are different ways of doing things over in the US to what we might do but I just don't understand why someone would get a puppy only to spend no time with it and shut in a crate - sorry.

And I'm going to put a health warning on some of TinaK's advice anyway - First I'm sure you meant your post to be helpful but there are one or two things that you say that could cause this member more problems. The main one is that this is not a young puppy. It's a 12 month old fully grown dog so it does need its exercise. Also some of your methods are not ones that we would endorse. Apart from crating for long periods,  suggesting a sneeze is a sign they want to go no - circling, sniffing the ground etc etc are the signs to look for. Sneezing suggests something else perhaps associated with the sniffing that is then irritating the dogs nose.

Some of your suggestions are sound, cleaning and taking time of work for example. I took 3 months off for mine and also used a good friend. "a couple of days" aint gonna do it.

[TinaK]

About sneezing- My trainer taught her own dog how to do that, she told us about it in class just as a fun trick to teach... BTW,  It's not a "sneeze" sneeze... anyway, I can't explain that with text.

Health warning is fair enough    I was trying to help, and I do see how my views rub against the philosophy of COL forum.. 

BTW, I am Russian leaving in the US - I am not really familiar with the "US" ways of doing things...

My dad was is a dog kinesiologist and a K9 trainer.  Although me and my mom lived separately for most of my life, I saw him interact with dogs a lot - we had all kinds of them in our 1 br apartment - with hip dysplasia and behavioral problems... he worked with them very hard. I howevr, have no qialifications to post any advise.

[Pammy]

About sneezing- My trainer taught her own dog how to do that, she told us about it in class just as a fun trick to teach... BTW,  It's not a "sneeze" sneeze... anyway, I can't explain that with text.

Health warning is fair enough    I was trying to help, and I do see how my views rub against the philosophy of COL forum.. 

BTW, I am Russian leaving in the US - I am not really familiar with the "US" ways of doing things...

My dad was is a dog kinesiologist and a K9 trainer.  Although me and my mom lived separately for most of my life, I saw him interact with dogs a lot - we had all kinds of them in our 1 br apartment - with hip dysplasia and behavioral problems... he worked with them very hard. I howevr, have no qialifications to post any advise.

Tina - you don't need qualifications to advise - just sound experience and evidence of what does and doesn't work and what is of course considered appropriate methods

It might not be your views that rub - but certianly some of your practices - for example leaving your dog to run free across neighbours property - even if you do run and pick up afterwards -are you absolutely 100% sure you never miss anything

Hopefully you can pick up lots of tips here so that you can make Jack's world a better place too

[Jane S]

Are you against leaving puppies alone for a long periods of time? Or against leaving them in a crate for long peroid of time?

Both really as young puppies need their owner's time and attention. I think owning a dog is a privilege not something everyone is entitled to no matter what their personal situation When I was working full-time after leaving college, I did not have a dog (even though I desperately wanted one) as I didn't think it fair to make a social animal spend long periods alone. I also couldn't have afforded a dog sitter back then which is why I waited until I worked from home before we got a puppy. I didn't and still don't believe I have a right to own a dog no matter what - sometimes you have to put a dog's needs before your own. I'm not having a go at you or anyone else who leaves their puppy alone most of the day, it's just not something I could do nor would I let one of our own puppies go to a home where this would happen.

[ClareB]

Have to say I agree 100% with Jane and Pammy.  If any dog, let alone a puppy, is left alone all day (in or out of a crate), with just a break at lunchtime, then it's extremely unfair, imo.  My OH and I are very fortunate in that Milo comes to work with me and isn't left alone for long periods.  Between us, my OH and I took time off work for the first few weeks he was home and then he started coming to work with me.  It took careful planning and consideration, we didn't have a proper holiday last year and spent most of our days off apart so there was always one of us at home with Milo while the other was at work.  Because of the time and attention we gave to Milo, he was toilet trained within a week.  I know we're very fortunate to be in the situation we're in, but if I couldn't take Milo to work with me, we would have reconsidered having a dog until our circumstances were different and we would have a dog sitter or friend come in at least once, maybe twice a day.  Alternatively, we may have rescued an adult dog who was already house-trained and didn't need letting out as much during the day to relieve themselves.

Edited to say, just re-read this post and realise it comes on a bit strong!     Don't mean to offend anyone and know that not everyone is as fortunate as us.     However, I do feel that people who are at work all day and are unable to devote as much time to their dog's exercise, stimulation and training needs, can only expect their dogs to take longer to get the hang of things.

[supaspaniel]

Hi ya
My 2 year old choc roan Harmy has been a a bit troublesome to housetrain. He's my 3rd cocker and I've not done anything different to my other two so I think it depends on the individual dog. He's ok now, but got quite bad when I moved in with my OH and his working cocker a year ago.

Clean up accidents with soda crystal solution and ignore him after any indoors incidents, but praise him big time when he does things outside. It may be an attention thing with you out for most of the day, allbeit negative attention, to him he's got your attention, so ignore him and dont look at him ( only for a few minutes), dont tell him off. It's all about behaviour. Operant conditioning. Positive reinforcement.

[TinaK]

Being on the black list for advise giving... I have more to add..

It's a luxury for me and most people I know to work even part-time, especially people I know in Russia. It would be an insult for a good dog owner and a full time worker to hear something like that.

Coming from a working class family myself, I have never heard of "dog-sitters" and such, it does sound like a great idea but... if people save dogs from rescue centers - that's got to be good! Even if you can't spend 24 hours with the dog - the dog has a family, and a yard, and weekends out of town instead of a cage.

Full-time workers can be good dog owners, as much as stay at home owners can be ignorant... There is no recipe but your dedication.

[Magic Star]

as much as stay at home owners can be ignorant...

 

[TinaK]

as much as stay at home owners can be ignorant...

owners who stay at home 

[Pammy]

Tina - no one is saying you have to spend 24 hours with your dog - quite the opposite and yes just because someone is at home all day does not necessarily make them a good dog owner, it's about balance. But any dog beng crated for hours on end is not having his full needs catered for.

Dogs need quality interaction time with their owners - not just letting out of a crate then putting back in again while the owner goes to work or off to do whatever they want to do.

If you choose to take in any dog, puppy or rescue you have to be prepared to make the sacrifices or changes to your life before you bring them in. If you can't make those changes then you should really question if you should be having the dog just yet or not.

As humans we make choices that affect the animals in our lives. They get no choice - it is therefore our responsibility to do our best for them That is the only philosphy you will find endorsed on this forum.

[Tanya]

I agree  with Pammy, the main point is balance, though i am all day at home, Charlie is 2 year old rescue dog and we had to start from the begining to teach him like a pappy, had hard times , waking up 2-3 times at night to go outside, a have learned signs when he is ready to go out,his behaviour, I don't know about crate thing , nave had before, with my first dog,i think i wolud not keep my pappy in crate even for have an hour., not that  i a m aganst the crate .

[Rhona W]

Are you against leaving puppies alone for a long periods of time? Or against leaving them in a crate for long peroid of time?

Both really as young puppies need their owner's time and attention.

I'm glad you said that Jane as it was exactly what I was thinking.
I'm not having a go at anybody - but I personally would not have had a dog if I was going to be out all day! I actually feel quite guilty if I have to crate my boys at all during the day, even though they are crated at night.

[jann]

Has anybody else any constructive advice for Tiffanyheth,? this post seems to have turned into an attack on TinaK.