Author Topic: Guarding New Owner  (Read 6085 times)

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Offline *jean*

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Re: Guarding New Owner
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2006, 07:59:06 PM »
Id take the chocolate off the tree and limit their access to food. if you are giving them chews give them them in separate places do they have their own crates?  shut them in with their treats so ww3 doesnt break out, it may be better if they cannot even see each other when eating and after remove bowls so if one goes to sniff an empty bowl the other wont fly at it in case they have missed a morsel.

Offline Rhona W

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Re: Guarding New Owner
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2006, 08:29:22 PM »
I agree with Jean.  :blink:

I know my situation is totally different to yours (I have brothers) but we had issues over food. They had a scrap over stuffed kongs.  ::) We had to watch them at meal times and if they had treats (kongs, chews or bones) they were fed in different rooms. They have now reached the stage where I can give them a bone as they stand next to each other and they will walk off with them in opposite directions. But it has taken a couple of months for me to be able to do that. 

Offline wend

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Re: Guarding New Owner
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2006, 10:31:35 PM »
Just thought I'd keep you up to date with whats going on with Harvey and Summer. We've sorted out the howling at night which is great. The fighting still continues so I spoke to my dog trainer about it last night. After asking me loads of questions as to what she guards he thinks she's fighting with Harvey because she is frightened. He told me to put her on a lead in the house so that if they start its easier for me to seperate them. He also told me to feed them side by side but holding Summers lead so that she can't snap at him. He said to give them treats together again with the lead on and if at anytime she growls at him I just move her away. To start with it was a bit worse because Summer decided that she was going to guard the trailing lead but she's got used to it now. Other than that he said to leave it for at least 4 weeks as he believes she just needs to gain more confidence around Harvey. If it continues after that he's going to help me try some different training techniques. They did have a fight in the kitchen tonight and I couldn't get there straight away it sounded absolutely awful, I was so surprised that there wasn't any blood.

Looking on the positive side Summer is fantastic with the children, she just wants to sit with somebody all the time and sleep. Shes been to the groomers, had a bath and trim and is starting to look like a proper cocker. We've started to take her for walks which she seems to enjoy and she runs around the garden with Harvey without any fighting at all. She does have a few accidents in the house, but most of the time she goes in the garden. As she's got the lead on all the time (apart from when she's in her crate) we've just noticed this evening that she's starting to carry the lead around in her mouth which looks so sweet.

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Re: Guarding New Owner
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2006, 11:28:14 PM »
I really am truly sorry to say this but I totally disagree with your trainer's advice. 
If they are right, and she is scared of Harvey, how do you think it is going to increase her confidence by forcing her to eat next to him - surely she will just feel more threatened..... I would feed them wide apart - separated by a childgate, so that she doesn't feel threatened.... when we get a new addition, I always feed them separate from the others - otherwise I would expect trouble to break out esp as my two rescues were half-starved lurchers who would kill for food ....

Offline Mary P

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Re: Guarding New Owner
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2006, 01:27:03 AM »
It sounds like you're beginning to recognize the triggers - and that's the crucial step! If you can avoid the confrontation all together then that's best. Otherwise try to understand what the trigger was so you can avoid / distract them before the escalation starts the next time. It was Tia and Jack that fought in my rescues - Peggy is so submissive that she keeps herself out of harm's way!! After a while I could see Tia start to tense up before she'd go for Jack, and I could generally diffuse the situation. When Jack started it, it was more unpredictable, and so less controllable.

Food is often a trigger for Tia but sometimes she will guard other things that are precious like a cuddle with me.

You'll be pleased to know that they got their differences sorted out, and now are really fine together. Tia will defend Jack if he sounds worried, and Jack follows Tia around like a lamb!

I find that mine are more aggressive on the lead as they feel they can't escape if they need to. Tia and Jack major fights when Jack first came when they were on the lead - always initiated by Jack. He really can't cope being around other dogs on his lead!

When I give a treat, I say the name of the dog I'm going to give to and then give. They soon learned that as they all get one (when they've earned it), they just have to wait for their name.

Peggy will play with me, and the occasional other dog, but Tia and Jack don't play. Tia once played ball, but just to out do another dog. She looked at me as if to say - "well I can do this if I choose to, but I just don't choose to!" ::)

Good luck with it all - it's hard work when they argue, but you'll all get there in the end!?! :-*
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Offline wend

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Re: Guarding New Owner
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2006, 06:13:25 PM »
I really am truly sorry to say this but I totally disagree with your trainer's advice. 
If they are right, and she is scared of Harvey, how do you think it is going to increase her confidence by forcing her to eat next to him - surely she will just feel more threatened..... I would feed them wide apart - separated by a childgate, so that she doesn't feel threatened.... when we get a new addition, I always feed them separate from the others - otherwise I would expect trouble to break out esp as my two rescues were half-starved lurchers who would kill for food ....

I'm afraid that I have to take the advice of a dog trainer as I have no idea about these things. I have to say that I only hold the lead loose when they are eating, their heads even touch and so far there has been no trouble. I think his idea is that Summer will realise that Harvey will not touch her food and is not a threat. I'm not saying that what you suggest is wrong as I know one trainer may do somethings differently to another. The idea of me keeping the lead on is so that I can seperate them and for Summer to realise that I am the leader.

Offline Cob-Web

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Re: Guarding New Owner
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2006, 06:44:18 PM »
The idea of me keeping the lead on is........for Summer to realise that I am the leader.

This particular belief - that a dog considers its owners/human family as part of the pack, and the humans must lead it - has been discredited, although many trainers still perpetuate it, as in the short term it can lead to positive results; but in the long term, dogs can become fearful and aggressive towards people :(

If you don't mind me asking, what credentials does your trainer have? Anyone can set themselves up and call themselves a dog-trainer, with little or no experience or qualifications, so you might want to check that your trust in this trainer is well-placed  :-\  (Also -  Penel probably has more experience than many "dog trainers" who make a living from it, so I would trust her opinion over anyone who refers to Dominance Theory  ;))

There are a number of professional organisations such as the Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT) who assess and check up on their members to ensure that they are abiding by the Association Code of Practice  ;)

In the circumstances you describe, a dog behaviourist may be more appropriate than a trainer - some people are both, but being a trainer does not automatically mean that the same person is able to advise on doggy interactions and how to modify the behaviour of a rescue dog who has been neglected and abused :(
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Offline Colin

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Re: Guarding New Owner
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2006, 07:42:36 PM »
I really am truly sorry to say this but I totally disagree with your trainer's advice. 
If they are right, and she is scared of Harvey, how do you think it is going to increase her confidence by forcing her to eat next to him - surely she will just feel more threatened..... I would feed them wide apart - separated by a childgate, so that she doesn't feel threatened.... when we get a new addition, I always feed them separate from the others - otherwise I would expect trouble to break out esp as my two rescues were half-starved lurchers who would kill for food ....

I'm afraid that I have to take the advice of a dog trainer as I have no idea about these things. I have to say that I only hold the lead loose when they are eating, their heads even touch and so far there has been no trouble. I think his idea is that Summer will realise that Harvey will not touch her food and is not a threat. I'm not saying that what you suggest is wrong as I know one trainer may do somethings differently to another. The idea of me keeping the lead on is so that I can seperate them and for Summer to realise that I am the leader.

Although it sounds like it's working so far, it sounds a risky strategy to me - especially as their heads are so close together that they sometimes touch. It could only take one accidental bump or misinterpreted gesture to send them flying at each other - and then pulling one away with the lead could actually make things worse. I think I'd go with the idea of feeding them at a distance from each other and then gradually move the bowls closer over a period of time if it was going well. Doing things gradually always increases the chances of it working longterm, rather than risk one bad incident putting you right back where you started - or worse.

You might be interested in this book...

Feeling Outnumbered

It might give some tips you'd find useful. It's quite overpriced for what it is - a booklet rather than a book - but I'd be happy to pop my copy in the post for you to borrow, if you like.

Penel

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Re: Guarding New Owner
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2006, 08:01:30 PM »
I know it's really hard to know what to do - but - I have 5 dogs - who know each other extremely well - and only two of them I would trust 100% to eat with their heads that close together.  I don't want my dogs to eat with their heads near each other, it's just asking for trouble.  Food is incredibly high value for dogs.
What is the point of this - making them eat with their heads so close - I really don't understand your trainer's reasoning behind it.... if it is to show you are the leader - then this isn't the way IMO to show that.... for me, living with my dogs and getting them to live by my rules - is done in other ways.  I feed them, I give them access to their walks, and I reward them when they do what I want.... when they don't do what I want, they are excluded - either ignored by me, or time out in another room for a few mins. 
I am sorry if my advice is conflicting to your trainer's advice - I am a dog trainer, but not in the kind of way most dog trainers are dog trainers IYSWIM  ;)  I don't hold classes or anything, but I do have lots of experience in helping people live with their dogs, and so far my lot live together harmoniously - 4 bitches and one dog...


Offline Jan/Billy

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Re: Guarding New Owner
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2006, 08:07:00 PM »
There are a number of professional organisations such as the Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT) who assess and check up on their members to ensure that they are abiding by the Association Code of Practice  ;)

Problem is its difficult to find an APDT or pet behaviour counsellor  that doesn't believe in the dominance theory  :-\

I'm not convinced either way to be honest, but I've tried to find a local trainer who doesn't and haven't succeeded yet.



Offline Colin

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Re: Guarding New Owner
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2006, 08:28:57 PM »
I know it's really hard to know what to do - but - I have 5 dogs - who know each other extremely well - and only two of them I would trust 100% to eat with their heads that close together.  I don't want my dogs to eat with their heads near each other, it's just asking for trouble.  Food is incredibly high value for dogs.


I think I could trust Jimmy and Misty to eat so close their heads would touch but it's not something I'd try to find out - I don't like eating if someone is so close to me that are our elbows are banging into each other, for dogs it must be even more uncomfortable. Jimmy and Misty eat facing each other with the water bowl separating their own bowls. Stevie spent the first couple of months eating in her playpen - then gradually I moved her bowl closer to the other two dogs. It's only in the last week or so, after 4 months, that she is eating close to the other two. And this is with 3 dogs that haven't come from difficult backgrounds into a new environment that they haven't encountered before. Softly softly catchee monkey - as the old saying goes.

Offline PennyB

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Re: Guarding New Owner
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2006, 09:33:17 PM »
I have no problems feeding my two closely together at all, but either feed foster dogs across the kitchen from them or behind the kitchen door
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Offline wend

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Re: Guarding New Owner
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2006, 10:20:28 PM »
Firstly can I point out that I do not purposely put there heads right together when they are eating, neither has the dog trainer suggested it, he said feed them together in the same room. However if any of you have Claires bowls you may realise that they slide around when a hungry cocker is eating. This is how their heads got close together. Can I also ask what you mean by the dominance theory. at our training classes we never shout, smack or push dogs around, we encourage them with food treats, toys and praise. I have no doubt that my dog trainer knows what he is doing as he has done it for many years. If you would like to let me know if he has the qualifications please check out the web site: www.orchardsdogtraining.co.uk. I haven't gone down the road of a behaviourist yet as I have only had her for 2 weeks.

Offline Cob-Web

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Re: Guarding New Owner
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2006, 10:31:39 PM »
Firstly can I point out that I do not purposely put there heads right together when they are eating, neither has the dog trainer suggested it, he said feed them together in the same room. However if any of you have Claires bowls you may realise that they slide around when a hungry cocker is eating. This is how their heads got close together. Can I also ask what you mean by the dominance theory. at our training classes we never shout, smack or push dogs around, we encourage them with food treats, toys and praise. I have no doubt that my dog trainer knows what he is doing as he has done it for many years. If you would like to let me know if he has the qualifications please check out the web site: www.orchardsdogtraining.co.uk. I haven't gone down the road of a behaviourist yet as I have only had her for 2 weeks.

The website looks great - you obviously have a trainer who has spent time to become a member of the relevant professional organisations - all of them  ;)

Dominance theory does not have to mean physically dominating your dog (although some trainers believe that this should also be achieved) - it refers to a belief that your dog should consider you pack leader. Some trainers believe that to achieve this you should do what the canine pack leader would do - things like eat before him, prevent them getting up to your level (no on the beds or sofas) etc. People who subscribe to this theory use behaviour such as pulling on a lead, and walking through a door ahead of you, as evidence that the dog is "dominant" and must be "taught its place".
The fact that your trainer said that the purpose of the trailing line is for Summer to realise you are the leader suggests that he/she at least partially subscribes to this belief; which has more recently been undermined, which is why I wondered how up-to-date his/her training practice is  :-\
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Offline wend

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Re: Guarding New Owner
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2006, 10:44:24 PM »
The purpose of the trailing line is so that I have something to grab if they start fighting. He does believe that dogs shouldn't be on a sofa or bed unless they are invited, he does tell us to make the dogs sit and wait when we go through a gate or door. (I just though that its proper doggy manners) He has never actually  said that I should be the leader (I've picked that up from books) but he did say with me taking the lead and moving Summer before she attacks Harvey that it shows her I'm in control of the situation (maybe thats the same thing?)