OMG - just got advice from dog behaviourist

[jann]

  Caty from what you say, if Flynn is not the one who is initiating the 'aggression'  then I can't see a problem at all.

The only thing I can think is that maybe, because he's on the lead, he reacts more badly  because he feels he can't get away from the situation ? Off lead he's got more chance of avoiding a confrontation ?

You sound like a very responsible owner and good on you for doing your best to understand your dogs   

Jann

[caty]

Caty from what you say, if Flynn is not the one who is initiating the 'aggression'  then I can't see a problem at all.

The only thing I can think is that maybe, because he's on the lead, he reacts more badly  because he feels he can't get away from the situation ? Off lead he's got more chance of avoiding a confrontation ?

You sound like a very responsible owner and good on you for doing your best to understand your dogs   

Jann

Thankyou! We used to walk him and then let him off the lead but were advised by numerous sources to walk him only on the lead after he started showing these signs of aggression. I do realise though that a lot of dogs feel more at a threat when on lead as they can't run away and are forced to move onto the next stage in order to get other dogs to back off. Recall with him is usually pretty good, but I don't want to chance it if a fight breaks out.

[PennyB]

Ruby was jumped on from a great height by a GSD when she was a pup --- gsd was only playing but it really did hurt her (she could hardly walk for the rest of the day). Now if a gsd or similar size dog charges at her she screams her head off and the dogs owners freak as they think their dog has hurt mine --- I usually tell them in advance if I can.

If a dog especially a large dog charges up to Wilf either on or offlead he gets really gobby and he sometimes chase them off and I've had owners give me filthy looks. I usually reply that how would they like a person racing up to them who they don't know not knowing if their intentions are good or not.

I always keep an eye on the situation (and if I can pre-empt it and distract mine or if on a narow path I'll put Wilf on a lead just so I have control I will but generally mine are offlead most of the time and do have good recall anyway).  Wilf's a good dog really and I feel that other owners must take some responsibility for their dog's actions as well.

With some dogs who I regulary meet who have no manners I try to walk along with the owners as then it does settle down eventually

[caty]

Thanks for all your replies, everyone. I feel better today and have tried another few behaviourists. I'm going to follow the method in the Culture Clash and reward him (or distract him!) with a piece of chicken or liver each time he's calm when other dogs come up to him. I hope this works.

Following on from PennyB's post, that made a lot of sense. When ours were about 6months old, a boxer jumped on them and Flynn ran away, while the boxer was pouncing all over Ludo.He pinned him down and wouldn't let him back up again. Ludo was sqealing to get away and Flynn watched all this from a distance. It was an awful experience, and I'm sure the boxer was playing - too roughly - but it has perhaps had a lasting effect on our two.

Funny thing is, we went to visit my sister recently who has a very old, passive retriever and they were both fantastic around her, although he was a little edgy at first.

[PennyB]

Thanks for all your replies, everyone. I feel better today and have tried another few behaviourists. I'm going to follow the method in the Culture Clash and reward him (or distract him!) with a piece of chicken or liver each time he's calm when other dogs come up to him. I hope this works.

Have you also thought of clicker training as well --- Karen Pryor is a good place to start (and Emma Parson's book 'Click to calm')

[caty]

I have a clicker - I bought one when they were puppies, but I have to say it's been in the drawer since I bought it 

Thanks for your advice, I'll give it another go and I'll look out for those other books.

[*Jay*]

Sorry, just catching up with this. My neutered boy is exactly the same - he is especially bad if other dogs sniff at his back end. He doesn't bother about other dogs unless they approach him - he tolerates them for a quick sniff or two but then you can see he gets quite anxious and then starts growling at them. He is better off lead than on as he can get away if needs be

[caty]

Sorry, just catching up with this. My neutered boy is exactly the same - he is especially bad if other dogs sniff at his back end. He doesn't bother about other dogs unless they approach him - he tolerates them for a quick sniff or two but then you can see he gets quite anxious and then starts growling at them. He is better off lead than on as he can get away if needs be

I'm relieved someone else has this problem - with a neutered dog. Mine hates it when other dogs sniff his rear. That's when he snarls and lunges.

What do you do when he does this? Do you correct it, give him treats or just ignore it?

[*Jay*]

Sorry, just catching up with this. My neutered boy is exactly the same - he is especially bad if other dogs sniff at his back end. He doesn't bother about other dogs unless they approach him - he tolerates them for a quick sniff or two but then you can see he gets quite anxious and then starts growling at them. He is better off lead than on as he can get away if needs be

I'm relieved someone else has this problem - with a neutered dog. Mine hates it when other dogs sniff his rear. That's when he snarls and lunges.

What do you do when he does this? Do you correct it, give him treats or just ignore it?

What I try to do is to call him to me before it gets to the growling stage - I tell him what a good boy he is and call him to me. This works fine if a) you get the timing right and b) as long as the other dog doesn't follow him which does happen quite a bit. If the dog starts following him then he will turn around and chase it off. TBH I don't stress out about it as much as I used to - of course I'd rather he didn't react this way but I think we have reached the stage where he is as improved as he is going to be so we manage it best we can.

[caty]

Thanks, I'll try that. He's normally very good at watching me when I ask him to and recall so hopefully it'll work. Fingers crossed. I think I'll try walking them separately until he gets better. I can't manage to hold 2 dogs and operate the clicker and treats at the same time. It's a handful!

Thanks for your advice.

[wrenside]

Hiya,
sounds like very good advice the chaps on here have given you. As long as he's not going out and looking for a confrontation then I don't think you have an agression problem at all. I agree that it's not ideal for him to snap at dogs which come over to him, but I've found that Bella can do this to dogs who are over boisterous with her and I'm happy for her to tell them off if they push their luck with her. Some dogs are more comfortable with strange dogs than others, just like some people are better in new social situations than others.

I think yous dog behaviourist has just pidgeon holed your problems into 'sibling issues' because it's an easy diagnosis, I don't think anything that your dogs are showing you points to sibling problems, so get a new behaviourist if you still feel you need one. Definitely try positive rewards in getting him to enjoy meeting new dogs and behaving calmly, if he sees new dogs as a happy, positive thing then hopefully he will not get so anxious about them and calm down without lunging or snapping.

You sound like a wonderful owner, with your dog's best interests at heart  I think it's awful that the rehoming of one of your dogs was put forward as the simplest 'solution' 
With these two being your first two dogs and this being the only possible problem with their behaviour that you've encountered so far, I think you've done extremely well (especially with two dogs who are litter mates)  Well done 

Be consistent and focus on positive rewards for the desired behaviour and I'm sure he'll improve and gain some confidence with new dogs.

Good luck.

Best wishes

Mary

[Beth]

You've had some fantastic advice, and i hope you get things sorted, i just wanted to add my view.

I'm the owner of a rude(ish) dog, who has fantastic recall unless there's another dog around, and unfortunately will charge up to most dogs to say hello, and i just wanted to reassure you that i wouldn't think it was the other dogs fault if Jarvis got snapped at because of this.

I would also try and give them offlead exercise too, as not being tired enough may make him more edgy?

Best of luck, you do sound like a great owner.

[harveysmum]

Quote - Some dogs regardless of sex or entirety, will challenge other dogs when on a lead it is a defence mechanism, but let most dogs off the lead together and they will soon start to enjoy each others company (unless its a blood thirsty beast).

Would agree with this completely  

Our last cocker spaniel "Oscar" was a total softy, loved everyone, soooooooooo laid back but if he was approached by another dog whilst on a lead he would growl, snarl etc. I never worried about it, I just thought it was because he felt vulnerable on the lead, but as soon as he was off lead he was running around playing with them

[Top Barks]

Sorry but am I missing something here! If your dogs are not fighting each other tooth and nail and all they are doing is trlling rude dogs off then I don't see any justification for rehoming one of your dogs at all.
A good behaviourist or trainer would show you how to manage these instances and start you on the road to try and change your dogs reaction to the other dogs.
Look on the APDT website for a reputable trainer in your area.
You could also check out anyone from COAPE on their website or a member of the APBC
Mark

[caty]

Thankyou so much everyone for all your excellent advice. I'm really excited now about taking him to the park with my OH to practise training around other dogs with some delicious treats

I'm so relieved it's not as serious as we were led to believe....phew!