Dog Listeners

[caty]

i read all Jan's books and thouroughly enjoyed them at the time, but then i broadened my horizons and learned about learning theory and wolfpack theory and it's demise

I'm really interested in this. So far it's been drilled into me that I have to establish myself as leader of the pack (I've read Jan's books also). I've been reading the Culture Clash recently and so far it has said that there's still a basis for this in the domestic household, but perhaps not to the same extent that we were led to believe. Is it true that domestic dogs will never see us as their pack leader? Is there such a thing anyway in a domestic setup? (e.g - an established pecking order)

I tried some of her methods and look back at what a total Pratt i was eating before my dog and trying to make myself pack leader.

I did this when they were puppies  Was this a pointless exercise? Every source of advice I've sought so far has followed pack theory when dog training. I'm an avid watcher of The Dog Whisperer as well, Cesar Milan, who also follows this approach.

Forgive all the questions, but I find this so interesting and really appreciate other views that are expressed on this forum.

[Colin]

Caty - you might find this article interesting, casting doubts on the accuracy of some of the pack theories...

Dominance; Fact Or Fiction ?

Personally I think this pack theory stuff is a load of twaddle, just from observing my own dogs. Jimmy is quite clearly the boss here but he doesn't give two hoots about getting through doors before the other two, or being fed before them, or being on higher ground than them. In fact it's quite the opposite - he's always last through the door, he's the last to get to his food bowl, he's the only one that prefers to sleep in his basket on the floor. But when he feels he needs to stop them behaving in a way that irritates him, the other two will listen and back down instantly - they know how far they can push him and that they can't take the mickey out of him in the same way that they do with each other. Just a glare or a moan from him is enough to stop them in their tracks. He doesn't need to lord it over them at all times to have their respect.

I do think it's important to teach dogs manners though, so for example you are able get your dog to wait while you go through a door first if need be, or be able to ask your dog to get off the sofa and it will etc - but beyond that I don't think it means our dogs will see us as alphas, or pack leaders as a result... we are teaching our dogs manners and boundaries and hopefully gaining respect and trust, rather than being the 'dominant' boss that rules through fear.

[debz]

Hi well i like jan fennells books but like with what i do with my horses i look at lots of different natural methods (as i don't believe it beating your animal into behaving itself) i take different parts from each of them that i think will work using my common sense  I do believe though that we expect animals to fit in to our lifestyle so the least we can do is look at there natural behaviour and try too understand to some level there views on things and how they precieve them and then you can work with your dog/horse to gain love, respect and harmonous bond with each other 
Debs x

[Helen]

i'm with you (and Barry Eaton!) Colin 100 percent....as far as Jan Fennell goes, i feel she is on the 'instant' training bandwagon which appears to get quick results.  I don't think dog training is an instant thing - positive reinforcement will take longer to achieve...

As for the demise of the wolf pack theory - why do you think it has met it's demise?  Possibly because it no longer bears relevance to the domesticated dog??

and caty, if you approve of methods like prong collars watch Cesar Milan - if you don't i think you should question his methods and how he achieves the dubious results he gets....

[debz]

Hello i do believe that we should look at the natural way in which dog behave and the way they interact with other dogs and there is no doubt that they have a pecking order and someone is always boss ( not just dogs either ) i don't agree with any dodgy collars or the likes they make me
But every dog is different and you do need to handle them in different ways although the fundmental basics will always be the same

[Top Barks]

As for the demise of the wolf pack theory - why do you think it has met it's demise?  Possibly because it no longer bears relevance to the domesticated dog??

and caty, if you approve of methods like prong collars watch Cesar Milan - if you don't i think you should question his methods and how he achieves the dubious results he gets....

Wolf pack theeory met it's demise because learning moved on.
Dogs are not wolves and do not live in the same environment.
Over time both artificial and natural selection have changed the dog , it's appearance and behaviour from that of it's ancestor.
Man has bred dogs for various traits including tameness ,which has had the result of altering the dog in many ways.
Belayev, a russian scientist carried out an experriment on  foxes In the 1950s that had astonishing results.

Some of the details below in an essay I wrote for college in my first year.

 Dmitry Belyaev of the Soviet Union's Institute of Cytology and Genetics in Siberia began testing a hypothesis to look at whether selection for a behavioural trait—tamability—could bring with it the morphological and physiological traits associated with domestication. (Gilbert n.d)

Belyeav’s experiment provides a highly probable biological mechanism for the self-selection of wolves into dogs. (Coppinger, 2005 p.63)

The experiment began with 30 male foxes and 100 vixens from a commercial fur farm, which were bred with strict criteria for tameness.
 (Gilbert n.d)
Tameness was measured by the ability for the foxes to behave in a friendly manner to their handlers, wagging their tales and whining.
(Coppinger, 2005 p.64)

The effects of artificially selecting for tameness brought about several changes in the behaviour and appearance of the foxes, which were noted by Belyaev. (Jackson, 2006 lecture notes 4)

These included: turned up tail, dropped ears, early sexual maturity, two breeding, cycles per year, coat colour, smaller jaw, teeth and skull size. (Morey1994)

The physical and behavioural features that tended to be retained were those associated with juveniles, a process called paedomorphosis. (Morey1994)

These changes took only 20 generations to achieve a fox that looked and acted like a dog. (Jackson, 2006 lecture notes 5)

This process however would have taken much longer in the wild as the selection criteria would not have been so specific.
(Jackson, 2006 lecture notes 5)

As man selectively bred his tame wolves, he effectively narrowed the gene pool, which led to more rapid changes in the dogs’ morphology, physiology and behaviour. (Jackson, 2006 lecture notes 5)

Dogs are not wolves so why expect the same behaviour and social structure to be the same.
Even the studies on wolves have been to a point misunderstood in the way the wolves were observed in a false and captive environment.
In my oppinion The leader of the pack theory gave credance to the fact that we could boss our dogs and punish them for not doing what we wanted.
There is no understanding of the dog and it's behaviours here, just our human interpretation.

As for Cesar Milan, in my oppinion you will learn more by switching off and picking up a book such as the culture clash.

[Maria]

A big thumbs down to the Jan Fennell method from me. As a first time owner I bought one of her books and fell for it hook, line and sinker. The result ? A confused, miserable and withdrawn dog. All the ignoring knocked the confidence out of him - to the extent that he wouldn't even come to me if I called him, even if I got his lead to go for a walk, he just lay there and stared at me.    Buying her book was one of the biggest mistakes I ever made.

Same here Colin...and if we'd tried these methods with Smudge (ex puppy farmed girl,initially scared of people,timid and skittish anyway), then I doubt she would have made any progress at all ,and would have become depressed as well.
As well as the books already mentioned, another favourite of mine is the Complete Idiots Guide to Postive Dog training, and If Bones would rain from the sky.

[spanielcrazy]

That is a really interesting study, Mark, I'd never seen that. That makes more sense to me, because as I thought about it more, I was completely unable to grasp an evolutionary jump from wolf to, say, Pekingese  But fox makes much more sense and that becomes a whole different kettle of fish! I also totally agree about the wolves being studied under the very unnatural and stressful conditions of captivity.

Having had several different breeds in my life, I also find breed differences. For example I don't think cockers, and gundogs as a whole, are particularly interested in heirarchys and the whole "social climbing" bit that some of the dominance theory trainers are so keen on. Being bred to hunt co-operatively they just don't really seem to care about such matters.

There may be one dog who is more pushy or more of a bully, but it may be  a mistake to consider that dog "dominant" Sometimes the most respected dog is the quiet type.

I'll say it again, having ruined several dogs with that whole alpha wolf cr@p, versus seeing the results of positive training and calming signals in not only my own dogs but the many many dogs I see professionally as a groomer, I will never ever go back to such methods again.

What may be gained in immediate behaviour change in the moment with the old dominance methods is lost in the loss of trust and relationship with the dog. Such methods push the dog away from you, psychically and emotionally and create a huge gulf between you. 

[suedownie]

Having started this all off I have just a few comments.  I have no intention of either defending or debating Jan Fennell's methods - I believe in them end of story.  What I would want to make absolutely clear is that Dog Listeners associated with Jan are nothing to do with C Milan.

Whilst I respect the research regarding foxes and the many studies done (some worthwhile others not) I would point out that a lot of Jan's research with regards to wolves was done with the wolves of Yellowstone Park particularly the Druid pack who live as wild wolves being reintroduced to the Park some years ago and are in no way captive.

One of the driving forces behind me embracing Jan's methods was my complete abhorence at the so called "cocker rage" syndrome - I do not believe in it.  I have worked in kennels and grooming parlours, done a small amount of showing & breeding, I have done agility and obedience. I have had cockers for 30 years and cocker rage does NOT exist only owners who have no right to own one of these beautiful dogs.

A method that can allow the dogs to make their own decisions in stead of us barking orders at them and one that enables them to live a happy stress free life must be a good one.

[spanielcrazy]

Don't take it personally.   We all enjoy a good general debate on training methods, so whenever someone brings up different methods or trainers or books it sparks lively discussion. I think everyone on COL agrees that one takes what works best for that person and their dogs, regardless of what "method" it is (and we all end up mixing and matching and experimenting till we find something that works for us)

Tbh I have not read Jan Fennels book, so I think I shall do just that so I'm not talking out of my a@se! 

[caty]

and caty, if you approve of methods like prong collars watch Cesar Milan - if you don't i think you should question his methods and how he achieves the dubious results he gets....

Just for the record, I do NOT approve of methods like prong collars and wasn't aware that C Milan used them! I do agree with him on the basis that many owners see their dogs behaviour and try too often to relate it to human behaviour when it's nothing of the sort.

I am open minded about ALL approaches on dog training (provided they don't use physical force to achieve results) and agree that each dog is different and what works for one won't neccessarily work for another. People can pull apart other behaviourists/trainers methods but in true fact there is something to be learnt from them all.

[LurcherGirl]

One of the driving forces behind me embracing Jan's methods was my complete abhorence at the so called "cocker rage" syndrome - I do not believe in it.  I have worked in kennels and grooming parlours, done a small amount of showing & breeding, I have done agility and obedience. I have had cockers for 30 years and cocker rage does NOT exist only owners who have no right to own one of these beautiful dogs.

Hang on, whether labelled cocker rage or not, but many aggression issues are actually caused by medical problems, which cannot be sorted out with a bit of behaviour advice!

Example: I knew a Dogue De Bordeaux, which regularly used to attack his owner, but not the young son. The owner wanted me to have a look at the dog, but I said that he needed a medical check first as it didn't sound like normal aggression. She didn't for a long while until the dog started having fits... It then turned out that the dog actually had a growth between the skull and the brain which caused him extreme pain. Strong pain medication made the attacks almost disappear until he died a few months later.

Jan Fennel quotes in her first book that her methods work on ALL dogs and if they don't, it is the owner's fault (and you just used similar words). In a case like the above, it is not the owner's fault and all the behaviour training (Jan Fennel or not) would not have made the slightest bit of difference as it was not a behavioural problem, but a medical one!

Aggression can in some cases therefore be untreatable, particularly if based in a medical condition, and it is in many cases certainly not just the owner's fault!

Vera

[Top Barks]

Having started this all off I have just a few comments.  I have no intention of either defending or debating Jan Fennell's methods - I believe in them end of story.  What I would want to make absolutely clear is that Dog Listeners associated with Jan are nothing to do with C Milan.

Whilst I respect the research regarding foxes and the many studies done (some worthwhile others not) I would point out that a lot of Jan's research with regards to wolves was done with the wolves of Yellowstone Park particularly the Druid pack who live as wild wolves being reintroduced to the Park some years ago and are in no way captive.

One of the driving forces behind me embracing Jan's methods was my complete abhorence at the so called "cocker rage" syndrome - I do not believe in it.  I have worked in kennels and grooming parlours, done a small amount of showing & breeding, I have done agility and obedience. I have had cockers for 30 years and cocker rage does NOT exist only owners who have no right to own one of these beautiful dogs.

A method that can allow the dogs to make their own decisions in stead of us barking orders at them and one that enables them to live a happy stress free life must be a good one.

I agree whole heartedly with your last comment but the point I was trying to make is it really doesn't matter what wolves you study either captive or wild they are not the same creature period.
You cannot expect the domestic dog to be treated like a wild wolf by a human who cannot communicate effectively with the dog in the way that another dog communicates with it as this will surely lead to confusion.
It did with my dogs.
I did the lot including gesture eating, which had no effect, ignoring my dogs when i came home well that is known as negative reinforcement and standing in the dogs bed was purely ridiculous.
There are worse methods than Jan's for sure but please try and be open minded enough to accept that there may be other scientific explanations for the success of her method rather than the wolf pack ideas she gives.
Mark

[Top Barks]

and caty, if you approve of methods like prong collars watch Cesar Milan - if you don't i think you should question his methods and how he achieves the dubious results he gets....

Just for the record, I do NOT approve of methods like prong collars and wasn't aware that C Milan used them! I do agree with him on the basis that many owners see their dogs behaviour and try too often to relate it to human behaviour when it's nothing of the sort.

I am open minded about ALL approaches on dog training (provided they don't use physical force to achieve results) and agree that each dog is different and what works for one won't neccessarily work for another. People can pull apart other behaviourists/trainers methods but in true fact there is something to be learnt from them all.

Cesar Milan does use physical force to achieve results from what I've seen.

[caty]

ignoring my dogs when i came home well that is known as negative reinforcement

Is this really so bad??

This is used with many schoolchildren in our society today. Reward the behaviour that you want to encourage and ignore the bad.(to a certain extent- obviously not the more serious behaviour!)

Just curious - what would you do with a dog who was jumping up? I would have thought that if you give it any sort of attention then it will keep happening?