Author Topic: Dog Listeners  (Read 5111 times)

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Offline Top Barks

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Re: Dog Listeners
« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2007, 05:53:59 PM »
ignoring my dogs when i came home well that is known as negative reinforcement

Is this really so bad??

Ooops did I say negative reinforcement, I meant negative punishment as you are taking away something the dog wants (your attention).
The answer to your question is no it's not so bad and I was just saying that this works because of how dogs learn and nothing to do with the dog perceiving you are the alpha.
I believe it is better to teach the dog a more appropriate behaviour to replace jumping up.
Rewarding your dog for what is right seems to come way down the list for some owners who's dogs seem to learn that their name is NO.
This is because this is the most frequent word it hears.
It's OK interupting or ignoring a behaviour but you must teach a more suitable and rewardable substitute behaviour in it's place in my opinion.
Mark

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
Member of The Association Of Pet Dog Trainers (00977)
 
Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk

Offline lyn

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Re: Dog Listeners
« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2007, 06:11:29 PM »
One of the driving forces behind me embracing Jan's methods was my complete abhorence at the so called "cocker rage" syndrome - I do not believe in it.  I have worked in kennels and grooming parlours, done a small amount of showing & breeding, I have done agility and obedience. I have had cockers for 30 years and cocker rage does NOT exist only owners who have no right to own one of these beautiful dogs.

A method that can allow the dogs to make their own decisions in stead of us barking orders at them and one that enables them to live a happy stress free life must be a good one.


[/quote] i find some of the above comments really offensive. you should read this link. and then tell me owners have no right to own one of these beautiful dogs.
http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=12047.0

Offline ladylola

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Re: Dog Listeners
« Reply #47 on: June 14, 2007, 09:20:46 PM »
I used to watch C Milan, until I saw him wrestle a dog down and pin it to the floor, then hold it there.  >:(








Julie. Owned by Sasha, Ellie, Monty, Paisley, Louie & Molly
One just isn't enough.

Offline Top Barks

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Re: Dog Listeners
« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2007, 09:36:07 PM »
For  someone who says they know dogs and has had them for so long you seem very ill informed on some subjects Suedownie.
Rage syndrome or idiopathic aggression in many breeds may or may not exist but for whatever reason even after full medical check up and behavioural modification these dogs still react with the most frightening aggression.
  I have worked with owners and their dogs on this forum who have spent pots of cash getting all sorts of medical tests and numerous behaviourists in to help  to get to the bottom of their dogs problem to no avail only to see them PTS.
They have been dedicated and wanted the best for their dog.
What would Jan do with a dog with idiopathic aggression?
Stand in its bed and get the owner to ignore it?
I would like to hear more of your argument as to why the dog listener method would succeed.
I agree there are bad owners out there but for every bad one I meet I meet 100 good ones.
Please tell us as a dog listener you would address such a case.
I am also left wondering why you will not debate and defend her ideas on here.
I for one am open minded enough to listen to your argument for her methods.
Mark

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
Member of The Association Of Pet Dog Trainers (00977)
 
Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk

Cazzie

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Re: Dog Listeners
« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2007, 10:23:57 PM »
Im exhausted reading all these  :005:

Never read a dog training book yet  :005:

Offline debz

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Re: Dog Listeners
« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2007, 10:25:24 PM »
Cazzie you just made me :005: lots

Offline suedownie

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Re: Dog Listeners
« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2007, 09:22:25 AM »
Lyn - the dog in the quote had a very unfortunate start in life with the puppy farmer and then was taken on by a novice owner - need I say more.  I am not blaming the owner at all but if we were all honest we have all made mistakes with our dogs and more than likely the worst ones with our first dogs but blame does no-one any good.  I am sure your will agree that many "experts"/"behaviourists" get it very wrong e.g  the ones who have invented and advocate shock collars!!!!

Mark - I will not defend Jan because I do not feel she needs defending and I am very dissappointed that this forum is such a closed shop.  All I asked in my original and first comment on this forum was are there any dog listeners our there and my first reply was negative.




Offline LurcherGirl

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Re: Dog Listeners
« Reply #52 on: June 15, 2007, 09:40:42 AM »
Mark - I will not defend Jan because I do not feel she needs defending and I am very dissappointed that this forum is such a closed shop.  All I asked in my original and first comment on this forum was are there any dog listeners our there and my first reply was negative.

I would still like to know what you or Jan would have done in the case of the DDB that I quoted... Would a medical exam have been advised? - I just never saw any evidence in her books that medical causes can be the reason for behavioural problems.

Vera

PS. I also own a dog myself that is allergic to animal protein and some stuff in the park we walk. When he has allergic reactions, he can display severe behavioural problems like total lack of obedience, pacing, restlessness, loss of house training, lowered bite inhibition and higher readiness for aggression. Yes, some of this could be addressed with behaviour modification and increased obedience training (though it wouldn't make a huge amount of difference), but the whole amichien bonding thing in Jan's theory would make the problem a lot worse as it has nothing to do with leadership at all. In fact all the ignoring and showing who is boss would send Flash into an even deeper turmoil during these episodes...  >:(
Vera Marney
BSc (Hons) Canine Behaviour and Training, APDT UK
www.wtdt.co.uk and www.wtdt-eastanglia.co.uk

Cazzie

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Re: Dog Listeners
« Reply #53 on: June 15, 2007, 09:48:35 AM »
We all make or have made mistakes with our dogs, gosh I can put my hands up to that. Although I have never read Jans books or seen her on tv she obviously is great at what she does, it is very hard to get into others minds on how an individual trains there dogs as Jan has taken years to become good at what she does and for others to read one book or so and digest it all to become as good as her or to understand 100% is impossible.

I dont think anyone should be negative towards anyone who trains dogs professionally as they are all good at what they do, if they were all the same it would be heck of a boring, also as someone else said, I take bits and pieces from lots of people to train my dogs to do what I want them to do. I dont read books I go out and take on board hands on experience.

Alot of people including me at times forget dogs are dogs and this is when problems arise, its not the dogs its the owners and I hold my hand up to that also.

The way people train dogs is changing all the time "Why" My dogs aint any different to the dogs my mother had when we were all young, she never consulted a dog traininer, her dogs respected her and did as they were told just like we did.

Before I went on to get other dogs, I did my reasarch for 2 years before getting another dog covering all aspects of training and so on, consulted traininers, vets and breeders to make sure I did not spoil a perfectly good dog. I found it was me that needed the training and not the dogs.  :005:

Offline Jane S

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Re: Dog Listeners
« Reply #54 on: June 15, 2007, 09:53:30 AM »
Mark - I will not defend Jan because I do not feel she needs defending and I am very dissappointed that this forum is such a closed shop.  All I asked in my original and first comment on this forum was are there any dog listeners our there and my first reply was negative.

This forum is not a closed shop and members are free to express their views as long as threads do not degenerate into arguments. Your first post on this forum is actually quite unusual for a new member - most will introduce themselves and talk a bit about themselves and their dogs before starting a controversial thread which you must have known would generate opposing views to your own. If you did not want a discussion about Ms Fennell's training methods, the question has to be asked why you started this thread at all? I am now closing this thread as I am not at all convinced your motives in joining this forum are genuine, particularly as you have made no other contribution to any other discussions besides this one.



 
Jane