RAGE

[Cazzie]

Perfect puppy is still on my reccomended list, I just tell clients to ignore the pack theory stuff.
I take it you mean The complete idiots guide to positive dog training Jane?
This is a cracking little book that I cannot reccomend too highly. It is a great read for all dog owners alike.
I have had two black cocker puppies described as having rage to me this year when it was clear they had nothing of the sort.
All they were doing was displaying boisterous, inappropriate (in the human sense) play and attention seeking behaviour the sort of thing I see all the time. one family had even contacted Linda Ward cos someone told them to.
If they were Labs or collie's rage would not have been mentioned.
So much lack of understanding out there I'm afraid.
Mark

Absolutely spot on 

edited to add, I still believe personally in the pack theory to a certai extent 

[Jan/Billy]

edited to add, I still believe personally in the pack theory to a certai extent 

I kind of believe that dogs need leadership to excel. In the way that a good manager at work can bring the best out of their employees. I like Billy to think that i am a source of good things, and in order to get good things then he needs to do this and that. Like me working my bum off at work at the minute to please my bosses,  as our annual employee bonus time is looming and they decide how much dosh  I get  

I don't believe in "show your dog whos boss" though. I don't think it's necessary.

Sorry for the hijak  

[PennyB]

edited to add, I still believe personally in the pack theory to a certai extent 

I kind of believe that dogs need leadership to excel.

I agree, especially when you have a confident pup and a not so confident owner (Charlie our working cocker who was taken to be pts age 1 had an owner that had no confidence to deal with him and labelled him bad and aggressive --- his foster home and new home have never seen any behaviours that his old owner described and neither did anything special with him, and he's now gone beyond his 'honeymoon' period ) This isn't quite offtrack as I remember a paper linda ward wrote or at least referred to where she discussed there was a correlation between confident dogs and 'bad' behaviour!

[spettadog]

Hi there

Pack/dominance theory in its true sense is based on flawed science and refers to how captive wolves behave.  These are wolves that have been brought together for the purposes of developing a pack.  They behave differently to wild wolves who are essential mum, dad and all the offspring.

I personally wouldnt recommend a book that had anything to do with pack theory in it.  No matter how much you tell somebody to ignore that bit of the book, humans being humans will read it anyway and take some of it on board.  That's why I was asking for a recommendation of another book that is just as good but without the pack theory stuff in it!!!  

I do believe that dogs needs guidelines, boundaries, leadership - much as a child does.  But true dominance theory does not project this.  It states that you are the pack leader etc., etc., and everything you say goes and with all the ignoring, eating before dog etc., etc., you are actually lending yourself to have a dog that is very confused indeed because dogs dont see us as dogs!!!

My own relationship is based on mutual respect.  My dogs know that I am the provider of all things they need to survive ie food, shelter, exercise and love.  I set the boundaries so that they know what is expected of them in order that we co-exist happily.  This is done when they are puppies.  I ignore bad behaviour and reward good behaviour; I use clicker training regularly; I exercise my dogs to their requirements and I provide them with excellent food and loads of cuddles.  In return, they have no behavioural issues, are trained to a standard (although not as perfect as I would like them to be but that's my problem, not theirs!) and they respect the ground rules.  

I suppose you could say this is pack leadership but I certainly dont see myself as a dog.  I just think that my dogs respect me and realise that if I say something they should do it because its in their best interests and that's without all the psycho-babble!!!!!  

Kind regards
Annie

[Top Barks]

gees we have had some threads about the dreaded D word on here and there are lots of interpretations of it.
Dogs need guidance to co exist in human society and as owners we need to provide it.
Call it setting boundaries and rules, call it leadership call it what you want i think people go over board on using or not using certain words.
However this is nothing to do with your dog seeing you as another dog or interpreting what you do as dog behaviour.

 Rank/hierarchy is all about resource-holding potential (RHP) and if the ultimate purpose for this ( in wild canid populations) is to ensure the passing on of the genes of the highest ranking (cleverest, fittest, strongest etc) to the next generation, why would our dogs see us as competition???

 If, through the way I live with them , I can let them know that not only am I to be trusted to keep them safe and healthy, but that all the good things in life come through cooperating with me, then maybe you could say I'm being their leader/parent/guardian/benevolent dictator, call it what you will.  At the end of the day it's just cooperation, respect for and understanding of each other and good training.  They get what they want and I get what I want.  Win-Win

With regard to books I think people need to be able to read and make up their own mind but do need to be guided about up to date methods by someone with adequate knowledge as to which bits are relevant. If there are good bits to a book and you can point out the bad bits then why not reccomend it?
Sometimes it is good to read all types of books to gain a balanced view and to be able to make up ones own mind don't you think?
I read all Jan Fennel's books and thought they were brilliant until I widened my reading and began to pick holes in what she said .
I have read books by Conrad Most and John fisher which were classics are now considered outdated but I am glad I have read them to make up my own mind.
I see what you are saying about an up to date puppy book and if you know of one I would be glad to read it.
Until then IMHO there is still enough relevant information in books such as the perfect puppy to make them worth a look.
Mark

[Joelf]

It does seem a shame that because the puppy is a solid cocker the behaviourist automatically assumes the dog has 'rage' whereas it does sound like it's just behaving like a normal puppy.

I have to admit that I'm far too lazy to apply 'pack leader theories' to our dogs even if I did believe in it.........which I don't!!! What a performance having to eat before the dogs (they'd never get their dinner before midnight at that rate.....indigestion all round!!!).......& going through doors before them, sitting in their beds to prove something, not allowing them on the sofa, ignoring them when we come in - the chance would be a fine thing!! -  frankly I couldn't be bothered & it would make our dog-owning into an absolute chore!!

It's just my personal opinion but having had dogs with very few problems for 20 plus years I feel that a little common sense goes a long way; far more than a lot of outdated theories about being the boss all the time. (Okay our dogs are throughly spoilt but what the hell!!!)

[spettadog]

Maybe its just me that meets dog owners who have no common sense and would follow absolutely everything in any book to the last word!!!!   

The problem with dog behaviour is that everybody thinks they are an expert and the ones that are able to market themselves the best get the glory - even if it is a load of rubbish!!!!  I completely agree that everybody should read widely in order to gain knowledge on dog behaviour.  I suppose its a bit like doing a degree.  For the first 3 years (in Scotland anyway!) you read widely and are not allowed to comment and the 4th year you get to debate the issues that you have read about.  Only when you can make a coherent argument do you get awarded with your degree!!!!

I do think though that if John Fisher were still alive today he would be up there with the best of them discounting pack theory etc.,  Peter Neville said at one of his seminars that he once sat through a lecture with John Fisher.  John sat open mouthed throughout.  At the end of it he turned to Peter and said "If what this guy says is true, my whole life's work amounts to nothing"!!!!  Even he was coming around to different ways of thinking before his untimely death.

However, all these people that have taken the time to do research into dog behaviour have actually done the world of dogs a great favour.  It wasnt that long ago that the way to train a dog to do what it was told was to hang it up on a choke chain!!!!  I'm so glad that we've all moved on from those years, arent you?

Kind regards
Annie

[Joelf]

The problem with dog behaviour is that everybody thinks they are an expert and the ones that are able to market themselves the best get the glory - even if it is a load of rubbish!!!! 

How true that is, Annie!! (I find this a lot with horsy people.........everyone's a ruddy 'expert' & can't wait to give their opinion on everything whether I want to hear it or not (& I mostly don't!! )

However, all these people that have taken the time to do research into dog behaviour have actually done the world of dogs a great favour.  It wasnt that long ago that the way to train a dog to do what it was told was to hang it up on a choke chain!!!!  I'm so glad that we've all moved on from those years, arent you?

Indeed........eat your heart out, Barbara Woodhouse!!

[Cob-Web]

It wasnt that long ago that the way to train a dog to do what it was told was to hang it up on a choke chain!!!!  I'm so glad that we've all moved on from those years, arent you?

I wish everyone had moved on, but they haven't - there are still people who do this to their dogs, and there are trainers who refuse to condemn it, even if they don't actively recommend it 

[Top Barks]

Maybe its just me that meets dog owners who have no common sense and would follow absolutely everything in any book to the last word!!!!   


No, I have to be selective of recommendation to some folks I admit.

The problem with dog behaviour is that everybody thinks they are an expert and the ones that are able to market themselves the best get the glory - even if it is a load of rubbish!!!! 

Some of these even get to spout their rubbish on TV
 I completely agree that everybody should read widely in order to gain knowledge on dog behaviour.  I suppose its a bit like doing a degree.  For the first 3 years (in Scotland anyway!) you read widely and are not allowed to comment and the 4th year you get to debate the issues that you have read about.  Only when you can make a coherent argument do you get awarded with your degree!!!!

 

I do think though that if John Fisher were still alive today he would be up there with the best of them discounting pack theory etc.,  Peter Neville said at one of his seminars that he once sat through a lecture with John Fisher.  John sat open mouthed throughout.  At the end of it he turned to Peter and said "If what this guy says is true, my whole life's work amounts to nothing"!!!!  Even he was coming around to different ways of thinking before his untimely death.

Absolutely

However, all these people that have taken the time to do research into dog behaviour have actually done the world of dogs a great favour.  It wasnt that long ago that the way to train a dog to do what it was told was to hang it up on a choke chain!!!!  I'm so glad that we've all moved on from those years, arent you?
the problem is though that a lot of people still have not.

Kind regards
Annie

Mark

[spanielcrazy]

You don't say what your MIL is (or isn't) doing, but my guess is that she is either using spanking or harsh punishment and the puppy is now showing fear aggression, or that the pup has learned that she can get her own way with shows of aggression. It is going to take work, patience and perseverance to try to reverse this and I gather that your MIL won't do this?

As for the so called "behaviourist".......   What a convienient "diagnosis"! Certainly lets the "behaviourist" and everyone else off the hook! No need to prove your skills as a "behaviourist", the dog can't be worked with!  I would bet the farm that this person has never ever laid eyes on a true rage dog.

What is needed here is to educate your MIL on normal puppy behaviour and play/exploratory biting, on positive reward training, and ignoring or time outs, all the kinds of training and behaviour modification that gets discussed here all the time. Yes, reading good training books too (I'll add this one: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Before-After-Getting-Your-Puppy/dp/1577314557/ref=sr_1_3/202-4870956-0547050?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194798402&sr=1-3)

At least getting your MIL to take the puppy to a class would be excellent, it would expose her (and the pup) to the better training methods where she gets to see it in action, and your MIL can hear these things from other people too if she's not inclined to listen to you

[Cazzie]

At that age I cant imagine anyone would need to use harsh methods or spanking any pup   

[Cob-Web]

At that age I cant imagine anyone would need to use harsh methods or spanking any pup   

A lot of people expect a puppy to arrive "fully trained" though - knowing what commands mean and what is expected of them.

I have lost count of the number of people who have told me that their puppy was bad, and they had to get rid of it because it wouldn't do as it was told 

[Cazzie]

At that age I cant imagine anyone would need to use harsh methods or spanking any pup   

A lot of people expect a puppy to arrive "fully trained" though - knowing what commands mean and what is expected of them.

I have lost count of the number of people who have told me that their puppy was bad, and they had to get rid of it because it wouldn't do as it was told 

Dont  I hate to hear this stuff it upsets me 

[spanielcrazy]

A lot of people expect a puppy to arrive "fully trained" though - knowing what commands mean and what is expected of them.

I have lost count of the number of people who have told me that their puppy was bad, and they had to get rid of it because it wouldn't do as it was told 

This is soooo true!!