Author Topic: Puppy behaviour  (Read 1664 times)

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Offline glennister

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Puppy behaviour
« on: December 18, 2011, 08:46:21 PM »
Hi all, we have a 1 year old female cocker called Darla (she is diddy) she thrives on company, be it human or canine.  My wife has had to start working full time and she has developed an attachment disorder.  So we decided to get her a friend...

We found a Tri colour / blue roan cocker that had been kept in kennels for all four months of his life  :'(
He dosent walk on a lead, paces around the house and didn't know his name (we have changed it to Loki and he is responding to it already after being home for 2 days!)

He has only had one wee in the house all number 2's have been in the garden following Darla's lead.

Yesterday he got aggressive with his food but I have since fed separately and there hasn't been any aggression apart from that one incident.  Myself and the kids can take anything from him without protest or a care in the world. He is a little wary of coming in from the
garden through the back door, but I'm surethis will improve over time.

Darla has been an only dog so has been a little spoilt with an endless bowl of food (she is not a greedy dog) has been allowed up on the furniture with us I do have to put her in her place now and then as she tries to nip/play with me (a harsh word or two and she stops)

I have a few questions if anyone would be so kind as to offer me answers..

Darla wont let him Loki on the sofa ( I assume she is being dominant)

She wont leave him alone when he wants to rest she bows down wiggles back and growls to entice him to play (should i let her carry on or stop her?)

She often licks his ears when he is laid down (again I assume she is being dominant)

Quite often when Loki lays down she jumps around him in circles and then cocks her leg on him without urinating (this boggles me)

When they play he chases her sometimes she puts her tail  between her legs and runs away, but then comes straight back for more (this confuses me)

All in all I am really happy with the way they are getting on  :D

Thanks in advance

Glenn

Offline seaangler

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Re: Puppy behaviour
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2011, 09:38:36 PM »
I can only help on one..
Darla wont let him Loki on the sofa ( I assume she is being dominant)

I saw what Victoria Stilwell done when she had a proplem like this ...

All she done was put a lead on the dog on the sofa...As the other dog came up to the sofa and the one on the sofa started to growl she took the one on the sofa off waited thirty second and let the dog back up and started the process over again(and rewarded with a treat...can but try...After ten minits the dogs was both sleeping together...as best of friends...

Are gemma sits on are Cindy's head(golden retriever) and starts to hump her head..So i would also like to be able to stop that one..to





Gemma..Cindy And peggy

Offline elaine.e

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Re: Puppy behaviour
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2011, 10:00:16 PM »
I'm no expert on behaviour, but I think that introducing an unsocialised puppy, who's not even used to being in a house, into a household where the resident dog has separation anxiety (if I'm understanding your post) is not going to solve the problem quickly.

Darla is already unsettled and introducing Loki is likely to unsettle her even more, at least initially. Loki has a lot to deal with if he's been kennelled all his life and is now having to learn how to behave in a house, with people he doesn't know and a whole new routine. The pacing in the house is an indication of how worried he is.

I hope that people with more behavioural experience than me will come along and help, but as this is Sunday evening and tomorrow is a working day, will Darla and Loki be on their own tomorrow? If so, please find some way of keeping them separate for their own safety when they're on their own until they are used to each other and more relaxed.

I really hope it works out for you and they become best buddies, but there are no guarantees and it will take time plus you'll need to spend some time training Loki on his own to help him learn all the things he's missed out on so far and to start building up a bond with him.

Good luck and I hope Loki and Darla become good friends.

Offline glennister

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Re: Puppy behaviour
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2011, 10:58:08 PM »
Thanks Seaangler, I'll try the lead thing when Loki is used to wearing one (dont want to put him off unless I'm advised to do it sooner)

Hi Elaine, The kids are off school and their Nan is looking after them (she has had cocker bitches for years) so they wont be together when someone isnt with them. 

Darla has been following us a lot less than before, I can now leave the room, go upstairs and she will stay laid down where she was.  A few days ago she would have followed me out to the stairs and pined at the bottom next to the gate.

We have seen an improvement in Lokis pacing, he now only does it in the kitchen  if the doors are shut, this is long, fairly narrow and has a lino floor (makes me wonder if its like a kennel to him)
He was asleep in the front room at my feet on an old dressing gown all snuggled up next to the xmas tree  :blink:

Before I put them in their crates I've let them out in the garden and he just followed Darla back in through the door without the hesitation he has shown for the last couple of days (fingers crossed)

I know I cant leave them together alone for a while. 



Offline minimoo

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Re: Puppy behaviour
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2011, 07:27:34 AM »
this pup is just 16 weeks old and everything will be new to him , im sure with patience and understanding he will be fine, i think your older dog is trying to keep him off HER sofa, but either they are both allowed up or neither, thats the rule with my three and ive never had any problems, i mainly let them sort it out themselves and make sure nothing gets out of hand, my older boy sometimes got a bit rough with the pup and i would say thats enough now and distract one of them , they do charge about the house like hooligans and make alot of noise , you have two young dogs there so be prepared for alot of work and noise and probably mess too as mine tend to wind each other up and sometimes have to have a bit of a time out
Julie owned by Ella, and Bailey the mud monster and little Milo.   R.I.P Kizzy 19.04.97 - 16.06.11, the start of my love for the wiggly ones and Bruno my lovely brave boy

Offline Karma

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Re: Puppy behaviour
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2011, 09:52:06 AM »

If these were dogs with no issues, I would advice you simply to let the dogs sort themselves out, but both of your dogs have some degree of anxiety, and I really think it would be advisable to get a behaviourist in to assess what is really going on between your pooches.

I do, however, want to comment on a couple of points...

"Myself and the kids can take anything from him without protest or a care in the world."  Please, please, please don't do this.  This is a very easy way to CAUSE guarding behaviour.  Your children should know never to take something from a dog... and you need to train a dog to "give" by swapping with treats and rewarding any voluntary "gives". 

"Darla has been an only dog so has been a little spoilt with an endless bowl of food (she is not a greedy dog) has been allowed up on the furniture with us I do have to put her in her place now and then as she tries to nip/play with me (a harsh word or two and she stops)"  - do I assume she is now on set meal times if you are needing to feed seperately??  A good idea, but do bear in mind that this is another change for her to cope with at a time when she suddenly has a lot of new things to cope with.  What do you mean by "put her in her place" and a "harsh word or two"???  Biting in play isn't uncommon in adolescent cockers, and simply distracting with a toy (or a scatter of treats), or halting play briefly (if biting occured during a game) or walking away is normally enough to teach them to control their teeth.  Dogs do naturally communicate with their mouths a lot, so it's quite a learning curve for them not to use them on their human companions...  ;) 

"Darla wont let him Loki on the sofa ( I assume she is being dominant)"  Why would you assume this is dominance?  She might just want some peace and quiet... or she could be "guarding" either the comfy sofa or you... it is this kind of interaction that a behaviourist really needs to advise you on, as without seeing the accompanying body language from both dogs the wrong advice could actually cause you more problems than it will cure. 

"She wont leave him alone when he wants to rest she bows down wiggles back and growls to entice him to play (should i let her carry on or stop her?)"  In general I would advice to let them sort it out themselves, but as your pup is undersocialised he may not have the skills to do this... if he is getting uncomfortable I would intervene by just encouraging Darla to settle for a while, but again a behaviourist will be able to see whether Loki is uncomfortable with the interaction or not.

"She often licks his ears when he is laid down (again I assume she is being dominant)"  - this is actually an appeasement behaviour... and while it wouldn't worry me in the slightest in normal situations, the fact that Darla has some anxiety (manifesting as her separation issues) I would really want to observe further, as it could be a sign of deeper insecurity about Loki's arrival... 

"Quite often when Loki lays down she jumps around him in circles and then cocks her leg on him without urinating (this boggles me)

When they play he chases her sometimes she puts her tail  between her legs and runs away, but then comes straight back for more (this confuses me)
"  - Sounds like perfectly normal immature play behaviour to me.... but again, given the whole situation I would want someone professional to actually observe.

On their own, and with well socialised and issue free dogs, I wouldn't be concerned about any of the behaviours, and in all liklihood your two pups (at 1yr old Darla is still very puppy-like, although technically she is now an adolscent, but don't make the mistake of expecting her to behave like an adult dog as that isn't going to happen...) are just adjusting to each other and left to their own devices would settle into a happy companionship.  However, given the whole picture I would reiterate that you would be best served getting a good behaviourist (not one who is still preaching dominance or pack theory - you want someone who uses kind and positive methods only and has kept up to date with modern behaviour theory and practice) to observe the 2 of them together in case there are subtle signs that something more complex is simmering below the surface - a bit of action now could save a lot of heartache in a few weeks' time.




Remembering Honey. Aug 2007-July 2020

Offline glennister

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Re: Puppy behaviour
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2011, 10:45:40 AM »
Hi karma, thanks for the concise reply.

Point noted about taking,  it has only been things like a laptop power supply (that was plugged in) or the tv remote, but ill set some treats on the mantle piece ready for the exchange.

Typically Darla has been a grazer so I have put her food out once with Lokis in a separate room, when she has lost interest and he has finished I remove her bowl.
She has started to eat more in one go but it will take a while I think.

I mean a 'NO, LEAVE' or 'HEY' and she stops. 

She is obedient, will stop doing something if I call her.
Loki has been kept with other dogs in the kennels ( he was in a rehoming center and was with a poodle and has been with other dogs)
 
I will speak to my wife about getting an assessment from a professional as we don't want to cause distress or harm to either of them.

I am quite confused about the pack thing and dog behaviour. Has this been superceeded by some other theories. I hqve read a book or two and they both speak of pack and alpha etc..

Thanks for your informative reply     :blink:

Offline Karma

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Re: Puppy behaviour
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2011, 12:05:26 PM »

As I said, I do imagine that all will be fine with both your pups once they've settled in...  but without being able to see them I couldn't guarantee it, and well-meaning (but inappropriate) advice from people who can't see the full picture can cause more problems than it solves...  ;) 

Yes, pack theory and dominance has been discreditted - some trainers/breeders/tv personalities continue to buy in to it, but the scientific basis for it (a study on a captive pack of wolves) has been accepted to be flawed by the person who actually carried it out.  This is a good link if you are interested in finding out more.... http://k9domain.org/alpha_theory.aspx



Remembering Honey. Aug 2007-July 2020

Offline Tillymai

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Re: Puppy behaviour
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2011, 10:00:00 AM »
I can't answer your specific queries I'm afraid but can only support what Karma has suggested about seeking the advice of a good behaviourist. We got Bear at 4 months, his previous circumstances sound very similar to Loki's and we saw similar anxious behaviour from him. We've been working with a good behaviourist, we had a couple of one to one sessions at home and now go to a special group class, and it has worked wonders. Bear is now 7 months and has made tremendous progress and I now feel confident that I can give him the support and training he needs. E x

Offline glennister

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Re: Puppy behaviour
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2011, 11:52:35 PM »
Thanks for the advice everyone.

Darla does guard my wife and myself, but stops when corrected with a 'HEY'
Loki guards his food from darla but not us and also stops with a 'HEY'
Loki also responds to leave!! and pacing has reduced by at least 70%  :D

Darla is a play pest >:D  Loki just wants to lie down sometimes and she wants to play, she sneaks over like a ninja, gently tugs his ear and makes him play...
all in all I dont think it could have gone any better, but I still have a (+reinforcement) behaviourist coming on thursday morning for a couple of hours to make an asessment and hopefully put our minds totally at rest.

Keeping our Fingers crossed all is well....

Offline Karma

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Re: Puppy behaviour
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2011, 08:53:29 AM »

all in all I dont think it could have gone any better, but I still have a (+reinforcement) behaviourist coming on thursday morning for a couple of hours to make an asessment and hopefully put our minds totally at rest.

Keeping our Fingers crossed all is well....


That's great!  :D
Hope all goes well tomorrow!
Remembering Honey. Aug 2007-July 2020

Offline Nicola

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Re: Puppy behaviour
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2011, 09:45:42 AM »
You've had some great advice on the behavioural aspects but one thing I would mention given that you now have a female and a male and their ages is that if Darla isn't already spayed you may want to consider what you are going to do when she's in season. Male dogs can be sexually active from 6 months old and in any case having an in-season bitch and an entire dog in the house can be a nightmare and cause huge stress for the dogs and for you. As the dogs both have some anxiety issues it may be a good idea to speak to the behaviourist about when and if neutering would be appropriate.
Nicola, Tilly, Rodaidh and Caoimhe x



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Offline glennister

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Re: Puppy behaviour
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2011, 10:21:44 AM »
We have spoken to our vet already and he will neuter Loki in January (he still crouched to pee), darla still hasn't had her first season yet (she is 1)  nanny owns one of her sisters from a previous litter and she hasn't had one in 8 years.
As soon as her first season is over we will have her speyed as it is quite a big operation and don't. Want to do it unnecessarily.

Cocker puppies are cute, fluffy and adorable, but we want 2 nice, affectionate and well rounded  family pets that are good companions.  Not 11 crazy cockers!!!!

Offline glennister

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Re: Puppy behaviour
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2011, 07:00:10 PM »
Had the dog shrink over this morning......

Couldn't have gone better.   When they play they take it in turns to yield/lie down, also its very polite play and its not one sided. Loki tries it on and Darla tells him off, he then will play by the rules until he forgets, then another ticking off..
Their body language is as playful as it gets  :D
Darlas separation anxiety is almost non existent and she definitely has a new friend!

 Loki does pace about a little but it is to be expected until he settles in properly given that he is 4 months old and everything is new. There's some desensetising training to be done.

We checked out his food guarding and he didn't do it aggressively , but shoved darla out of the way when she went to eat.  So new bowls that are slightly different and have to teach them who's is who's.

I expected too much too quickly.

All in all "a couple of lovely dogs"  was her last comment.

Offline Karma

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Re: Puppy behaviour
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2011, 07:35:09 PM »

Great to hear your update!!  :D

So glad they seem to be getting on well.... it's always reassuring to have someone who knows what they are seeing tell you that everything looks good!!
Remembering Honey. Aug 2007-July 2020