CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: *Jay* on August 23, 2006, 06:09:06 PM
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Vegas went to see the behaviourist today. Her conclusion was the same as mine - he is one confused and stressed out little dog :'( Obviously it wasn't just me who fell to pieces when Brook died - it has had a similar effect on Vegas. He is not comfortable being leader and he is not doing a very good job of it as a result. So he is stressed and all the other dogs are stressed because of this. First thing I have to do is get his eyes checked as he has been showing a lot of anxious behaviour when its a bit darker so this will be to rule out any eye problems. I have to carry on with the DAP and the scullcap & valerian tablets. I have to introduce training discs to interrupt any of his grumbling behaviour in the house as the verbal commands only work about 90% of the time. I have to teach them all the relax command with the intention of reducing any stress as it occurs. The one major step is that I have to promote Dallas to number one position :o This would have been the last thing I would have thought of doing as I have always thought of Dallas as a very submissive dog by nature. However, the other day Dallas was having a drink and Vegas growled at him as he wanted a drink ::) Dallas just growled back at him and Vegas backed off with no problem at all. This incident has led her to believe that Dallas would be more than capable of being above Vegas and that Vegas would be a lot happier being further down the pecking line. She also wants me to alter the way I do my time outs whenever a squabble ensues. Normally I would remove Vegas from the room for 5 minutes then let him back in. But apparently that confuses him even further so I have to put him out but also put the others out too away from Vegas. Then I have to bring them in one by one starting with Dallas. I have to carry these steps out for a couple of weeks and see how we get on. Apparently, when promoting another dog, it can be quite common for squabbles to take place between dogs 2 and 3 so I need to keep a close eye on how Disney reacts to the situation. I am quite nervous about messing with the hierarchy but it does seem to be the only way to make Vegas a bit happier.
Wish us luck ;)
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Wow, Gill, good luck with that!! I don't think I would in any way be an experienced enough dog person to deal with that.... will stick to 1 dog me thinks...
Glad to hear there are steps you can take to help Vegas though, wishing you all the best and hope he is a happy relaxed dog soon :luv:
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Best of luck with it Gill :D
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Good luck Gill - brilliant explaination btw; it makes perfect sense when put so clearly like that ;)
I hope it all goes well and that the transition goes smoothly - I will be looking out for updates ;)
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I do hope you can get your head around all that. I'm with Petra on this one!
Hope it goes well. Do keep us up to date.
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Good LucK Gill,
I hope Vagas, is ok, and it all fits to gether for the better.
Does this affect you getting your Jersey??
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No mention of the DAP lowering inhibitions then ? tis something I have come across a few times lately, especially with lurchers grumbling at each other in the house (not mine - other people's).... the DAP is unplugged - and everyone slots back into their places..... just something to bear in mind if your plan doesn't work out.
Good luck - I hope it all does work out, although I am not really a fan of humans attempting to intervene with hierarchy so I will be very interested to hear how it goes.
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Good for you for trying to make your dog's lives a happier one. If anyone can succeed, you can Gill, wishing you loads of luck and keep us posted. When it starts to fall into place don't forget to brag away ;)
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wow you are going to be one very busy lady gill.i hope all goes well for you and the boys :D
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wow, that was fascinating reading.
i know that it will be difficult for you but you must be relieved that the behaviourist has concurred with your thoughts and that you have a way forward for you all.
Fingers crossed that it will all fall into place and vegas get's his mojo back ;)
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Wow - sounds like you have your work cut out Gill.
How will Jersey fit into all this - will it upset the balance?
Look forward to hearing how you and your 4 beauties get on.
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Good luck. :D
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Phew Gill sound complicated,but worth it if Vegas is happier. I think we always assume that the dog we have had longest/oldest will be boss and not take individual personalities into account. Abby our black bitch is the boss in our house (2nd dog) Billy male but castrated is happy for this and lets Abby lead, the only issue we have is everything is on her terms and sometimes this means she won't let the other 2 (Roxy & Flossy) girls play without a bit of grumbling.
Good luck
Michelle
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I have honestly got to say that I never thought that deeply about doggy issues like that. Good look Gill, I think you will have your work cut out, especially with Jersey soon on the scene.
Regular updates are a must.
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I think if Jersey will be anything like most females, it won't take long for her to show everyone who is boss.
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Be really interested in how this progresses Gill - so much of this is how Jsper and Buddy behave - but sadly Jasper thinks he is and wants to be top dog :'(
Hope you get it sorted so you can all relax.
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I'm with Cathy, Jersey will soon have the boys sorted. Seriously though good luck we never managed to sort out the pecking order with Henry and Jasper so they have to live seperately now.
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As the problems don't lie between Vegas & Dallas, I am hopeful that things will work out by switching their positions. Today was the first day of the new regime and so far so good. I nearly forgot to give Dallas his food first at breakfast time and to take his lead off first at the park but remembered in the nick of time ;) We still have plenty of time to get into a new routine before the new pup arrives but if things do go all a bit pete tong then we will put the puppy plans on hold as the resident dogs have to come first. Fingers crossed it doesn't come to that though ;)
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Keep up the good work Gill :D
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Surely dogs are quite capable of finding their own pecking order? They do not have us to do it in the wild, but if it works and destresses your dog gill then the best of luck.
I would be very wary about messing with the dynamics of my pack but it will be interesting to see your results.
Who was the behaviourist and what qualifications do they hold out of interest?
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Surely dogs are quite capable of finding their own pecking order? They do not have us to do it in the wild, but if it works and destresses your dog gill then the best of luck.
I would be very wary about messing with the dynamics of my pack but it will be interesting to see your results.
Who was the behaviourist and what qualifications do they hold out of interest?
Great, just what I wanted to hear when my nerves are already shot ;) :005: :005: The lady we went to see is a veterinary nurse who has done a few behaviour courses including the canine/human interface course?? Means nothing to me but she came highly recommended from a few vets that I spoke to.
I'm open to all suggestions so feel free to pipe up if you have any other ideas ;)
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Aw Gill I really hope it works out for you and your boys. I know how I felt when I took billy to a behaviourist, you're not convinced they are right but you feel as though you have to trust that what they say is right, it's much easier said than done!
I'm sure with the advice from COL and you yourself you will soon determin if it's the right route or not ;)
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Surely dogs are quite capable of finding their own pecking order? They do not have us to do it in the wild,
Quite true, but I have read behavioural research in to pack animals of all types (including wolves & baboons!) and it is evident that the loss of a strong pack leader (in this case, Brook) can lead to complete collapse of a successfully functioning pack, with internal disputes, fights, defections to other packs, reduction in births etc etc due to the lack of an effective replacement for the pack leader :-\
Obviously, in nature, they find their own way and the pack is often absorbed into surrounding packs or exisits for several years in a state of chaos and disruption until another leader "steps up" - but in the case of packs that we have created, I think we have a responsibility to assist them in dealing with these issues to prevent this type of chaos occurring in our own homes ;)
I hope it works out for you all Gill, and that little Jersey joins a harmonious home as planned :D
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I said at the start of the thread how I feel - same as Mark - I do not feel it is possible to change hierarchy within packs by human intervention.
Do you seriously believe that putting one dog's lead on or off first is going to make a difference.
In a wolf pack - the puppies eat first - so probably not wise to go down the "wolf" route IWLass ;) :005:
I don't know whereabouts you are Gill but if you are anywhere near Angela Stockdale - she is the maestro of canine aggression and I would heartily recommend her to anyone with "pack" problems.
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In a wolf pack - the puppies eat first - so probably not wise to go down the "wolf" route IWLass ;) :005:
I wasn't thinking of applying pack theory to the household (I thought you knew I'm not a fan ;))
Mark used the analogy of packs in the wild being able to sort themselves out heirarchy-wise - I agree that they can, but its often at a price and takes a while - one that we are unable to tolerate in a domestic situation :-\
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I don't know whereabouts you are Gill but if you are anywhere near Angela Stockdale - she is the maestro of canine aggression and I would heartily recommend her to anyone with "pack" problems.
I'm in East Scotland and now I'm more confused than ever ::)
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Oh Gill - there's different thoughts coming from all over the place here. :huh:
Only you know your dogs and you will do whatever you believe is right.
I do hope it works for you whatever you decide and look forward to hearing how you get on.
Good luck!
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;)
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What I would do is ignore the lot of 'em - withdraw your attention so that they have to sort themselves out. Sounds harsh maybe but that is what I personally would do.....
You are miles away from Angela - she is down in Somerset... you could email her though and see if she knows of anyone close to you that works the same ways as she does.....www.dogpartnership.com
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I don't profess to be a behaviourist or anything but common sense and years of experience tell me I would listen to Mark and Penel, Gill,
What you've been 'advised' sounds way too complicated. If it were me I would be worried that I could end up with a pack of very confused dogs.
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What difference would it make to ignore the all the dogs from what had always done up until she was told to take the new actions? Wouldn't that still cause Vagas to be confused.
What do you mean by ignoring all the dogs, surely, you have to give one of the dogs its dinner first, and you have to let one off the lead first? why shouldn't this contribute to natural progress amongst them all? They can still find there own way?
Why does doing these little things differ from .. not allowing your dog to sleep on your bed, or best to eat your own dinner before give your dog its dinner, and for some - NILIF?
I know I am not trained. So do not suppose to know, but I would really like that expalined.
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At the end of the day they are not wild dogs, they do not, never have and never will live in the wild. Food and exercise is provided for them and they have nothing to do with that they don't have to try to balance perhaps lean times over times of plenty and cater for puppies so pack dynamics are a red herring in the wild sense of the word.
You know your boys Gill and need to be able to live in harmony regardless of another joining the crew. Iput from others is of course always welcome but can as in this case serve to confuse.
Hope you manage to get some semblance of order in there for them. Don't forget how much they pick up from you though. I agree with ignoring them it can help - but is not the panacea. ;)
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Oh Gill - there's different thoughts coming from all over the place here. :huh:
Only you know your dogs and you will do whatever you believe is right.
Good luck!
I second that :D
Go with what you think Gill, trust your own judgement :shades:
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Gill, we rfr a lot of people to this lady, and they have had great succss. She coms very highly recommended and would talk to you on the phone to see if she thought anything else would be useful.
I did my training classes with hr and loved her methods, she's a real character and a dog person.http://www.livewithyourdog.co.uk/
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What I would do is ignore the lot of 'em - withdraw your attention so that they have to sort themselves out. Sounds harsh maybe but that is what I personally would do.....
Not always an easy thing to do, and surely depends on the severity of the problem. If I had taken that route when I had troubles between Georgia, Neneh and then Otis, I would have had at least one dead dog on my hands. :-\
but is not the panacea. ;)
I've learnt a new word today :003:
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Oh Gill - there's different thoughts coming from all over the place here. :huh:
Only you know your dogs and you will do whatever you believe is right.
Good luck!
I second that :D
Go with what you think Gill, trust your own judgement :shades:
ph34r I didn't mean to add to your confusion Gill, and sorry if I unintentionally did! I agree that you must trust your own judgement as you know your dogs better than anybody. I was just saying that I would err on the side of caution before making my decision on how to treat the problem, weighing up all the pros and cons, which is what I understood you were asking for when you posted this thread Good luck whatever you decide to do Jann ;)
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Thanks for that link Shona - I'll look into that further ;)
I've tried ignoring him and letting them sort things out amongst themselves over the past 2 years but things have just gotten progressively worse. We had a problem last night on our evening walk which showed just how anxious he has become so I think I'm going to hold off on things until I get his eyes checked next week.
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Yes of course you can't ignore fighting dogs - that isn't what I meant.
I meant withdrawing your attention - no cuddles, no eye contact, no one sleeping on the bed etc - I know how hard it is - I've tried it too . Tis really hard to advise people what to do - I'm no expert - I was just giving my opinion - I don't think you can increase rank by letting one particular dog off lead first. I do feed Tilly first - she is our pack leader - then I feed the others randomly - but I still don't think it increases her rank - *she* is the only one that can do that by her behaviour.
Good luck at the vets - I hope his eyes are ok Gill.
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I don't think you can increase rank by letting one particular dog off lead first. I do feed Tilly first - she is our pack leader - then I feed the others randomly - but I still don't think it increases her rank - *she* is the only one that can do that by her behaviour.
I agree - it takes more than letting off lead first to determine rank; but I do think that it is an important part of what Gill has been advised - if Dallas is to take over the dominant position in the pack then he needs to know that he has Gill's support to do this ;) I see it less an issue of how the other dogs view him, and more how Dallas sees himself ;)
I have read freqeuntly the importance of not undermining the heirachy that co-habiting dogs have established (not intervening when the top-dog disciplines another, for instance) so I think it is equally possible to put interventions in place to give a dog confidence to take over from a dog which is unhappy or unable to fill that role :-\
Although they are not "wild" dogs - when domestic dogs co-habit they have to develop some form of social "rules" amongst themselves to ensure that they live harmoniously; don't they?? :huh:
I suppose my thinking is that because dogs are individuals, and because they are genetically programmed in certain ways, then it is inevitable that some co-habiting domestic dogs which develop relationships similar to those between wild pack animals :-\
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Personally I believe that dog / dog interactions go much deeper and are much more complex than we still understand.
We miss so much body language and inter dog communication that it is difficult to know what is going on within the dynamics of a domestic pack.
These dynamics can be subject to change.
I would suggest that by all means put on a specific dogs lead first and have a specific routine and order that you do things all I am saying is that I am not sure how this human concept of dominance heierachy will affect what actually goes on between our dogs.
Your dogs will come to accept this routine I have doubts it will change the dynamics of your pack .we seem to be looking at this issue with a human vision of dominance.
What makes a dominant dog?
An alpha dog does not need to go through a door or eat first everytime because he knows if he wants to he can.
A popular perspective on the social behavior of dogs in multiple-dog households sees the dogs' behavior as reflecting the sociobiological laws of the rigidly structured dominance hierarchy.
Like wolves, domestic dogs are social animals (and hence should not be socially isolated) and they have an hierarchical social system. However, the hierarchy is neither created by, nor necessarily maintained by physical domination, nor is it strictly linear. If anything, the hierarchy is created and enforced by psychological control, and the peace of the pack is maintained by active appeasement rituals of lower ranking individuals. In fact, the famous Cambridge and Berkeley zoologist, Dr. Thelma Rowell has suggested that the status quo of social groups is better termed a subordinance hierarchy - a much more precise and descriptive term.
Yes, most groups of male dogs generally have a surprisingly stable linear hierarchy, but females tend to show significant day-to-day variation and male-female interactions can be extremely unpredictable, with rank-reversals being the norm rather than the exception. Indeed, bitches have virtually rewritten canine hierarchical law with the First Bitch Amendment which states, I have it and you don't. Moreover, individual members of a domestic dog pack have special friendships, alliances and bodyguards. And truly confident top dogs are more than willing to share and even allow underdogs and buddies prime access to bones and favored sleeping places. To say one alpha male rules the roost is an oversimplification to the point of ridicule. In fact, in most domestic canine social groups it is not a single male, but rather a group of females which decide what's what.
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Indeed, bitches have virtually rewritten canine hierarchical law with the First Bitch Amendment which states, I have it and you don't.
:005: - great description; I saw this in action yesterday evening when Snoopy and Molo were seriously trounced by a gorgeous springer bitch over a tennis ball ;)
I am sure Gill will find a balance that suits her household - and as others have said, I expect when Jersey joins the family, she will soon let the boys know who's in charge ;)
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I have just looked at the trainers website and she indeed seems suitably qualified to advise on these matters.
Everybody has their own ways and views which are constantly developing and really it is very difficult to advise on pack specifics without seeing the dogs interact.
I know who is top dog in my household and it ain't one of the dogs.
I am a provider and not a dominator, I feed my dogs together and at the same time and I have no specific orders for putting them out or bringing them in and this does not in my pack at least seem to affect the structure of the pack.
In fact what I see is a structure that fluctuates just like described above which is strange cause I have three boys although they have all had the chop and I wonder if even this can affect the pecking order
Best of Luck Gill
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However, the hierarchy is neither created by, nor necessarily maintained by physical domination, nor is it strictly linear. If anything, the hierarchy is created and enforced by psychological control, and the peace of the pack is maintained by active appeasement rituals of lower ranking individuals. In fact, the famous Cambridge and Berkeley zoologist, Dr. Thelma Rowell has suggested that the status quo of social groups is better termed a subordinance hierarchy - a much more precise and descriptive term.
I see this a lot when other bitches come into my house (either friends dog or fosters), and interestingly its very noticable how Ruby actively carries out appeasement rituals (more so than if she meets same dogs outside on park). Its weird as immediately its as if they all know here they stand.
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In fact, in most domestic canine social groups it is not a single male, but rather a group of females which decide what's what.
substitute the word canine for "family" or "human" and hey yup you got it Mark :lol:
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Well, we were at the vets tonight and he does have some vision problems with PRA being a possibility. His retinas are narrowed but because we have nothing to compare them to, the vet think it will be a good idea to monitor him for about 3 months and then re-examine with a view to referring him to one of the vet schools for further investigation. It certainly explains a lot of his behaviour but I can't believe I'm unlucky enough to have two dogs affected with sight problems :-\
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Well, we were at the vets tonight and he does have some vision problems with PRA being a possibility. His retinas are narrowed but because we have nothing to compare them to, the vet think it will be a good idea to monitor him for about 3 months and then re-examine with a view to referring him to one of the vet schools for further investigation. It certainly explains a lot of his behaviour but I can't believe I'm unlucky enough to have two dogs affected with sight problems :-\
Oh, Gill I'm so sorry to hear this - although it explains some of the behaviour you have experienced, its not really news you wanted to hear :'( Do you know if there is PRA in his genetic line? :huh:
Fingers crossed that it doesn't deteriorate over the next 3 months.... :-\
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Sorry to hear this Gill :'(
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Do you know if there is PRA in his genetic line? :huh:
I don't know but I am going away to do some research now. Aspen is booked in to have blood taken for his optigen test in 2 weeks and I think I will get it done for Vegas too and if that comes back fine, then hopefully it might be a condition that can be treated :-\
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Sorry to hear this Gill. We're all thinking of you. :luv:
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Just caught up with your thread Gill - so sorry to hear about Vegas's eyes :'(
Thinking of you :-*
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Oh poor Vegas - hope it's not as bad as you think & that it can be treated successfully. Sending good vibes to the lovely Vegas!! :luv:
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I've missed this thread and it's taken quite a bit of reading :-\
Gill, sorry to hear that the eye results were not good and I so hope it isn't PRA :huh:
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Sorry to hear this Gill. Thinking of you :luv:
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So sorry to hear this Gill :-\
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Sorry to hear about Vegas Gill. It must all be very stressful for you and I hope things work out for you and the dogs. I hadn't actually given much thought to how dog hierachy goes on when the 'top dog' passes on so this has been interesting reading me. Although we only have the two we are seriously considering no 3 next year.
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Gill - so sorry I missed your post about Vegas' eyes. I do hope it's not PRA and that it's something they can get to the bottom of and treat successfully. Poor you - what a worry :'(
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I missed it to ph34r I hope the Optigen results are OK.
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Sorry to hear this Gill - hopefully the Optigen tests will show a positive outcome and any sight problem that Vegas has can be treated. Good luck.
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I got the optigen results in this morning and Vegas is just a carrier so PRA can now be ruled out thankfully.
His behaviour *touch wood* has also been very good. He still has his grumpy moments where he will growl at the dogs if they get too close to him but alll in all he seems a bit more settled and less stressed. Aspen jumped on his head the other day and lived to tell the tale - that wouldn't have happened a while ago :005:
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I got the optigen results in this morning and Vegas is just a carrier so PRA can now be ruled out thankfully.
His behaviour *touch wood* has also been very good. He still has his grumpy moments where he will growl at the dogs if they get too close to him but alll in all he seems a bit more settled and less stressed. Aspen jumped on his head the other day and lived to tell the tale - that wouldn't have happened a while ago :005:
What a relief Gill :D
Fingers crossed he continues his good behaviour :luv:
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I got the optigen results in this morning and Vegas is just a carrier so PRA can now be ruled out thankfully.
That's really good news Gill :D Glad Vegas is also improving and seems more relaxed.
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oh good news gill! that must be a relief ;)
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Great News.
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That's really good news Gill :shades:
I'd make allowances for Vegas's odd grumbles. Don't we all have the odd grumble? ;) :D
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Great news, Gill :D. Glad Vegas is getting less grumpy :luv:
Sue and Tilly (was grumpy, but now, happily reformed after a good squeeze of her bot ph34r)
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What a relief :D
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Good news indeed Gill, I agree with Mary, we all can be a bit stroppy sometimes ;)
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Thats really good news. :D I'm also glad to hear that he's a bit more relaxed......that must make you more relaxed too. ;)
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So pleased to see that Vegas has improved Gill. :D
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seems good news all round.glad he is less grumpy.don't you just wish that sometimes they could talk.it would make life easier all round if you knew what they were trying to tell you.
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Exactly Lyn - I even contacted an animal psychic to see if she could shed any light on things. I got the pee taken out of me at work for doing this so shall say no more :005:
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What a relief, I'm really glad to hear that Gill :D
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:D
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soo have you been and picked your puppy yet I see you only have 24 days left till you get her you must be soo excited ;)
HAven't been to see them as the breeder will be picking her for me at 8 weeks so it is all very much of a mystery! Don't know about being excited - bloomin' terrified would be more like it :lol:
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Wow what an interesting thread - glad things seem to be improving.
Had to laugh at your animal psychic mention, that's the sort of things I'd do too :005:, so I understand, the girls in my work laugh at me too, but I love my puppies, and would do anything to see them happy.
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seems good news all round.glad he is less grumpy.don't you just wish that sometimes they could talk.it would make life easier all round if you knew what they were trying to tell you.
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Although you might not always like it!! :005: ph34r