Author Topic: is this the end for my boy?  (Read 9416 times)

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Offline patti

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is this the end for my boy?
« on: March 22, 2007, 06:21:28 PM »
I am so pleased to have discovered this forum and hope that somebody out there can offer some advice.  Trying to cut a long story short - I have a 5 year old blue roan male cocker. Two years ago he started to show signs of aggression to strangers and other dogs.  Taking him out in public was a nightmare.  I had no idea what triggered this change.  The vet has been very supportive.  Tests show the start of joint pain and arthritis which is being managed by cartrofen injections. We have seen 2 behaviorists - both with very different approaches. He is still barking aggressively at other dogs and when we are out he barks if they talk to him, make eye contact or move to stroke him.  He has not bitten yet but I feel he could do.  I have tried talking to the breeder who doesn't return my calls.  I've spoken to the trainers who we used to have when we attended classes but they too do not return calls.  I am desperate.  I just want my loving, happy boy back.  The vet has now asked us to consider the dreaded - ending his days.  He feels we have done all we can and he has a split personality.  I have cried for days.  The thought of life without him is unbearable.  Has anyone been through the same?  I'd love to hear from you

Offline LouiseAS

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Re: is this the end for my boy?
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2007, 06:32:53 PM »
Hi,

I can't really offer any advice but just to say that I rehomed an 18month old boy, Jakey, 5 months ago who is prone to aggression due to having been abused.  He has bitten but only us at home.  There is no way a stranger can approach him when on the lead but if they ignore and just walk past him he's fine.  I go to training classes with him and everyone there knows to ignore him when on the lead.  He location guards in the home and in my car.  We've learned to deal with it and find that because he loves to be talked to and praised as long as he thinks something is his idea we can get him to do anything now.

Jakey does, almost, have a split personality and can just fly into a tantrum if we do the wrong thing with him or push him too far.

I've had a couple of people tell me he should be put to sleep but we've learned to handle him and he is improving although I don't think he'll ever be 100% trustworthy.  We couldn't imagine life without him.

I know there are others on here that live with dogs that have issues and wouldn't dream of parting with their pet.

Good luck and I do know exactly how you feel.  This site is geat for offering support.
Louise & my beautiful girl Meg xx

Offline leisl

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Re: is this the end for my boy?
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2007, 06:37:13 PM »
Hi, I have no advice for you either and cannot begin to image what you are going thru.  So sorry to hear about your dilema, hopefully someone will be along soon to offer some support.
Leisl, Muppet & Krumble
Orange ones are more juicy!!

Offline Deb H

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Re: is this the end for my boy?
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2007, 06:49:06 PM »
Sounds quite similar to my oldest boy Henry. I really believe if he lived with another family he would probably been destroyed before now but we love him despite his split personality and are just grateful we ended up with him. Henry can be the sweetest lovelyest boy one minute and then he just changes posture and if you are not on the ball with him he will bite you. Nothing triggers it he just changes. He is also aggressive with other dogs so we always keep him on a lead and try to walk him at quiet times when dod on dog contact is minimal. He was fine until he was two he has just turned six. You have my heartfelt sympathies.
He is your friend,your partner,your defender,your dog. You are his life,his love,his leader. He will be yours,faithfull and true,to the last beat of his heart.You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.Anon.
Deb,Henry,Jasper & George angel babies. Sydney,Harry,Jethro,Dhali Hebe Seth Hades Moses

Offline Jan/Billy

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Re: is this the end for my boy?
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2007, 07:09:56 PM »
Hi welcome to the forum  :D

I have similar problems with my cocker spaniel Billy so I do really sympathise. Billys problems are almost identical although perhaps less severe. I too have see two behaviourists both with totally different opinions , thankfully the second one has got to the route of Billys issues & she's been a god send  :luv: .

Billy was diagnosed as "fear aggressive" which means he displays agression when he is frightened.  If Billy is frightened enough he WILL bite, he has bitten me several times BUT now I know what things he is frightened of ie strangers stroking him, people with high pitched voices, eye contact from strangers, towering over him, raised voices I don't now put him in those situations so I have eliminated the risk of him biting. It's unrealistic to expect a dog to like every dog & human being that they meet & to like everything that we like. I no longer allow people to stroke him, Billy doesn't like being stroked so why put him through it, he's much more relaxed meeting people in the street/park now as he's learning that he's no longer going to be touched by some stranger.

I am doing lots of work with Billy at the moment & he is improving, but there are certain bits of his personality that I have accepted will never change & he is what he is.


Although your vet is a highly qualified person, he is not a behaviourist & it's a good sound behaviourist which I think you need.

Can I ask what your behaviourists said? I'm interested what they thought especially as they had differing opinions  ;)





Offline Maria

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Re: is this the end for my boy?
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2007, 07:34:30 PM »
Hello and welcome.
Just wondering if your vet has done any thyroid tests on your boy? Apparently problems in the thyroid area can cause aggression problems.Might also be worth looking at his diet to see if there are any additives / preservatives he may be reacting to?

Offline patti

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Re: is this the end for my boy?
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2007, 08:25:29 PM »
thanks to you all for your comments - I feel so much better. Jan/Billy - how do you get people not to stroke him when in the street.  So often when I explain the situation i hear "oh it's ok, he's a cocker.  He's adorable" and then he lunges at them, they scowl at me and run!  One of the hardest things is getting people to listen to what I am saying.
The 1st behaviorist was very treat/reward based and introduced clicker.  This didn't seem to work at all but I am thinking of trying this again.  The 2nd behaviorist worked along the lines of the dog listener - ignoring, gesture feeding. This has worked great in the home and Bailey is now a very well mannered dog but it has had no effect on his behavior with strangers and the outside world. The children found this hard because suddenly they had to ignore him when they came home from school, not play with him when he brought a ball to them.  i want them to enjoy our dog and have a good fun relationship with him.
i have just made an appointment to see the vet again over the weekend to discuss options and I will mention the thyroid.
Bailey has always been fed on dry kibble - james wellbeloved.

Offline spanielcrazy

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Re: is this the end for my boy?
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2007, 08:34:20 PM »

Although your vet is a highly qualified person, he is not a behaviourist & it's a good sound behaviourist which I think you need.





Agree

Hello and welcome.
Just wondering if your vet has done any thyroid tests on your boy? Apparently problems in the thyroid area can cause aggression problems.Might also be worth looking at his diet to see if there are any additives / preservatives he may be reacting to?

And agree with this too. I would be inclined to find another vet, perhaps a holistic vet. I would not discuss this with class trainers as they usually aren't quite knowledgable enough to deal with these situations.

Between the two behaviourists are you seeing no progress?  :huh:

Just saw your new post, these things require a lot of dedication and hard work, this is something that is going to take a long time to sort. Have either of the behaviourists gone on a walk with you and your dog to see his behaviour and give you excercises and appropriate responses for you?
The madhouse: Michelle, Joy, Jordie, Gizmo, Bracken, Jewel

"My darlings,I love you more than life itself, but you're all ****ing mad!"  Ozzy Osbourne


Offline Ben's mum

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Re: is this the end for my boy?
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2007, 08:38:37 PM »
Yes another split cocker personality here too >:D >:D
Ben will bark at some people or dogs and other times completely ignores them, has major tantrums and if he is pushed too far he will sink his teeth into whatever bit of me he can reach!

However we have learnt to live with and manage his behaviour, avoid potential difficult situations and just accept and love him for what he is.  I will not let children touch him, and make sure I tell people he might snap, but as you say people don't always listen!  I used to be nervous about saying anything, but now i just say please don't touch him he bites!!!!  Its sad as Ben can sometimes be lovely with people but I can't take the risk.  Does your dog activley seek people out to be agressive or is it just if they approach him?  If Ben is off the lead he will ignore people happily and will not go up to them unless he knows them so we havn't an issue there.  

He is an angel in the house :angel: and is loving, cuddly and affectionate most of the time, but  occasionally stroppy too.
I have found that as he has got older he has definately got awarness of how hard he bites and I have to say he has only once done me any real damage and that was partly my fault for putting my leg between him and a dog he was going for, mostly however he goes through the full snarling and curling the lip bit but then only nips and often licks afterwards.  I often wonder if a more experienced cocker owner could have stopped this behaviour??  Like you I have tired behaviourists, and found a brilliant one who gave me good advice for in the house which works well, but outside is more of a problem.

I hope you get some good advice, stroppy cockers can be managed, but I do agree it is not as relaxed as you would like, sometimes I just wish i had a laid back easy going dog, but Ben will never be that and i wouldn't swop him for the world :luv: :luv:
Good luck

Bens mum

Offline biscuit

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Re: is this the end for my boy?
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2007, 09:12:30 PM »
I too have a stroppy cocker, but Molly started being stroppy from a younger age and now she's nearly four, she seems to be calmer.   I know how stressful it can be, people don't understand when you tell them not to fuss her and to ignore her.  When the groomer comes to the house to see her, she can't understand what all the fuss is about, as Molly stands still on the table for an hour with no problems and groomer says "shes a lovely natured dog".   I have been told Molly has fear aggression, as usually problems occur when strangers come into the house, she hides in her crate or under the bed settee.  A lot of members of the family have been nipped by her - especially men.

When she was younger, I was worried about rage as people did say, what do you expect shes a golden cocker and solids are the worst in temperament.  Now I tend to think, yes rage does exist but surely not just in cockers, and I feel they get a raw deal.   Just remember not all people like all people, so we can't expect all dogs to get on with other dogs/people. 

My dog is also very growly, she rolls over on her back, legs in the air in submissive position and I tickle her tum, but at the same time she's growling at me, I carry on tickling her, talking to her nicely but still she growls, not bearing teeth or snapping but she has to growl/groan.  I just think we should change her name to Grumpy Bum !

I would never be without her though, we all love her and know when to give her, her own space - she does seem to be a loner.   We know that if we didn't have Molly, nobody else would want her.   

Best Wishes

Molly's Mum


mollypooch

Offline Jan/Billy

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Re: is this the end for my boy?
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2007, 09:52:14 PM »
thanks to you all for your comments - I feel so much better. Jan/Billy - how do you get people not to stroke him when in the street.  So often when I explain the situation i hear "oh it's ok, he's a cocker.  He's adorable" and then he lunges at them, they scowl at me and run!  One of the hardest things is getting people to listen to what I am saying.

I say " don't stroke him, he's not good with strangers" if I feel they are going to ignore me and try anway ( People do  ::) ) Then I say "He WILL bite" & that usually stops them. Be FIRM he's your dog & people have to understand that YOU know him better then they do, no matter how cute he is.


The 1st behaviorist was very treat/reward based and introduced clicker.  This didn't seem to work at all but I am thinking of trying this again.  The 2nd behaviorist worked along the lines of the dog listener - ignoring, gesture feeding. This has worked great in the home and Bailey is now a very well mannered dog but it has had no effect on his behavior with strangers and the outside world. The children found this hard because suddenly they had to ignore him when they came home from school, not play with him when he brought a ball to them.  i want them to enjoy our dog and have a good fun relationship with him.


The ignore your dog routine is very old hat, I was told to do the same by the first behaviourist, it's not something I would ever ever use again on Billy but some people do. I am currently using the reward based methods.

Just saw your new post, these things require a lot of dedication and hard work, this is something that is going to take a long time to sort. Have either of the behaviourists gone on a walk with you and your dog to see his behaviour and give you excercises and appropriate responses for you?


Couldn't agree more. We first started work on Billy in December last year & we are still working. We had some one to one sessions with the behaviourist too. It's hard work, an hours drive there, then are hours session , & an hours drive back, but she's brill. At first she first watched me and Billy and told me where I am going wrong & I learned sooo much from her. It also gave her a chance to see Billy in action, she saw him bark & lunge at another dog  gave me her opinion on what he was doing & why.

Billy didn't start barking/lunging at other dogs until he was three yrs old. Our behaviourist said just because he's suddenly become frightened of dogs doesn't mean it wasn't always there. Somethimes it's always been there it's just that the dog didn't let it show, or did but we misread the signals  :-\

and then he lunges at them, they scowl at me and run! 


This is part of the problem, it becomes a learned behaviour. He has learned that if he doesn't like what a person is doing then if he lunges at them they go away, it's his coping mechanism. You need to get him out of the habit of doing this soon. With Billy as soon as he claps eyes on another dog I drop treats on the floor & keep doing so until the dog has gone away. I keep Billy at a comfortable distance away from other dogs . The idea behind this is that eventually he will associate other dogs as a nice pleasant thing & I can start to reduce the distance gradually between him and other dogs.

There is a member on here Mark "Top barks" who gives out excellent advice on things like this, I'm sure he'll give you lots of advice too.

Where do you live?? maybe someone can recommend a behaviourist in your area.

Before I forget, get yourself a copy of "the culture clash" by Jean Donaldson - Fantastic read, will explain a lot about why your dog behaves the way he does  ;)








Offline patti

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Re: is this the end for my boy?
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2007, 03:14:32 PM »
Where can I find 'the culture clash' by Jean Donaldson?
 We live in west yorkshire - so if you know a fab behaviorist for this area please let me know. 
Thanks to all of you - I feel so much better xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Offline lexi

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Re: is this the end for my boy?
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2007, 03:19:23 PM »
Amazon co.uk is where I got my copy.

Good luck with your boy :D
"Always be a little kinder than necessary." J.M. Barrie
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Offline Top Barks

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Re: is this the end for my boy?
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2007, 03:41:30 PM »
You say you have had behaviourists to see your dog were they members of a reputable organisation such as the APBC?
What differing advice did they give you?
Mark

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
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Offline Leah

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Re: is this the end for my boy?
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2007, 08:06:37 PM »
Putting your boy into a well fitting muzzle will make sure that people back off!  It will also stop him from taking chunks out of dogs/people if he suddenly lunges.  It keeps everyone warned and safe! I wouldn't stroke a dog wearing a muzzle! 

Is he neutured?  I am caring for a 5-year old Boy who still has his balls who is a sod around entire dogs but ignores bitches.  When on lead he grumbles and moans, lunges and barks ......... I stood talking to a man with 3 bitches for 10 mins until this one settled, we just ignored him until he became bored.  He was so intent on getting at them that he hadn't realised they were bitches!

 He ran after a black Lab one evening and got a snap on the ear but was so 'up' that he didn't even notice!  It didn't help that the owner put his dog on the lead so our Boy could get at him - had they been off and running it would have burned off the testosterone.

When he attacked our regular docile Cavalier visitor, also complete with balls, I used a cold water spray on his face.  That made him realise that I am boss, this is my house and what I say goes!  I also instigated firm rules about dog waiting to be asked through doorways, making him return if he pushed through first: that got him all growly and moaney 'cos he wasn't getting his own way.  However with sticks in the fields and hard tennis balls he's hung on tightly, rolling his eyes and I got the feeling that if he didn't have his gob full he would bite!  I had to teach him swapsies for a sausage to get the stick away!   I dont' know how the owners cope or how he behaves with them as they brought him here 'cold'.

I'm afraid that under the Dangerous Dogs Act you could find yourself falling foul of the Law.  He could be classed as a 'dog out of control in a public place' and if you admit to knowing that he has a tendancy to bite, if you don't use a muzzle you could have him taken away .....
 :'(.  Even in your car or your home ! These are termed 'public places' if someone complains!

Does your dog insurance cover regular visits to someone like Roger Mugford or Peter Neville?  Roger has represented people in Court with 'dangerous' dogs and has devised lots of toys such as the Kong for playtime.   It is probably an age 'thing' as in my opinion fear aggression would be shown much earlier.  I also know that some dogs don't like black coloured dogs, probably because they loom out of the hedgerows/darkness/gateways ..........

How has he been today?