Author Topic: is this the end for my boy?  (Read 9415 times)

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Offline Top Barks

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Re: is this the end for my boy?
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2007, 11:37:29 AM »
My house, my rules, I'm Boss  ;)

As I walked into the house with my regular 'boy', the visitor lunged, growling in an alarming manner.  I had ready a fine water spray which I used on his face: he stepped back, gave me a sideways glance and walked away to consider.  When he did it again, I only had to pick up the water spray for him to back off my regular 'boy'.  Instigating me going through doorways, gates etc. first reinforced that I *am* to be listened to!  After 2 days he was more relaxed as I had given him ground rules, never necessary before with any of the dogs who visit here. 

As for not stroking a dog wearing a muzzle - I would certainly approach the owner though and ask why  :angel: usually there's a reason, a springer in our village eats poo of all kinds and her owner is a little fussy so the dog wears a muzzle in the fields.  Shame ain't it, a bit of sheep poo breath never did anyone any harm ........  :shades:

I sorry to learn that Roger has preconceived ideas - I thought it was the behaviour he was judging not the breed!  Another one to cross off my C.mas card list  :005:

Our visitor has returned to his home now and it's Oh So Quiet ........

you must be so careful when using aversives on what sounds like an already frightened dog.
( confident dogs do not kick off and lunge as you describe)
Dogs make all sorts of weired connections between events and their environment and it is hard to let the dog know exactly what you are punishing him for.
If you do need to distract a dog with these methods then it is also important to train the dog an alternative more appropriate response otherwise dogs will learn you are to be feared and avoided and is that what you want from your relationship with dogs.
I am the leader and the boss in my house, but I do not have to go shouting the odds and spraying water around the place and I have in the past year rehabilitated a reactive dog ready to be PTS for people aggression before he came to me.
Punishing my dog who already had a mistrust of humans would have been counter productive to say the least.
dogs often learn to ignore punisher's anyway so what would you do if the spray stopped working? Where do you go then?
Do you start smacking the dog?
IMHO it is much better to train for what you want and be consistent with ground rules and your cues.
I have built such a super bond with all my dogs and though I do use tone of voice to warn them of my displeasure at their actions on occasion I always try to turn the negative into a positive behaviour I can reinforce.
I also do not stroke any dog muzzled or not without asking the owners permission.
I never force my attention on another dog but if it chooses to come to me for a fuss I will gladly oblige.
Mark

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
Member of The Association Of Pet Dog Trainers (00977)
 
Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk

Offline patti

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Re: is this the end for my boy?
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2007, 08:17:13 PM »
We have now started clicker training and I have ordered a copy of culture Clash from amazon. I have made an appointment with the vet for next week to let him know my decision - NO!!!   This is not the end and I will try everything I can to help my boy.
Thanks everybody for your support
Will let you know

Offline spanielcrazy

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Re: is this the end for my boy?
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2007, 11:45:45 PM »
So happy to hear this!  :D :luv:

Do keep us updated. You do have your work cut out for you, there's no denying that but if you're willing to put in the effort and dedication you'll be so happy you did. There's loads of support here on COL so you know you're not alone!
The madhouse: Michelle, Joy, Jordie, Gizmo, Bracken, Jewel

"My darlings,I love you more than life itself, but you're all ****ing mad!"  Ozzy Osbourne


Offline PennyB

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Re: is this the end for my boy?
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2007, 11:59:46 PM »
Dogs make all sorts of weired connections between events and their environment

Tell me about it --- Ruby began to react to traffic quite badly for a while as she thought a big truck was reponsible for the pain in her foot one day (I'd stepped on her paw while crossing the road just as a huge truck came by ::))

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Offline Dragon

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Re: is this the end for my boy?
« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2007, 06:05:49 PM »
I have ordered a copy of culture Clash


The chapter on fear, socialisation and aggression really helped me to understand that all dogs are potential biters and it certainly challenges your perception of the relationship between us and dogs. Would love to hear other COLers views about managing an aggressive dogs environment as opposed to behaviour modification i.e. stop trying to make a square peg fit a round hole.
Cooper x Sasha x George x

Offline spanielcrazy

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Re: is this the end for my boy?
« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2007, 05:11:10 PM »
I have ordered a copy of culture Clash


The chapter on fear, socialisation and aggression really helped me to understand that all dogs are potential biters and it certainly challenges your perception of the relationship between us and dogs. Would love to hear other COLers views about managing an aggressive dogs environment as opposed to behaviour modification i.e. stop trying to make a square peg fit a round hole.

Start a new thread on it.  ;)  It would make an interesting discussion
The madhouse: Michelle, Joy, Jordie, Gizmo, Bracken, Jewel

"My darlings,I love you more than life itself, but you're all ****ing mad!"  Ozzy Osbourne


Offline Jan/Billy

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Re: is this the end for my boy?
« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2007, 05:38:16 PM »
I have ordered a copy of culture Clash


The chapter on fear, socialisation and aggression really helped me to understand that all dogs are potential biters and it certainly challenges your perception of the relationship between us and dogs. Would love to hear other COLers views about managing an aggressive dogs environment as opposed to behaviour modification i.e. stop trying to make a square peg fit a round hole.

Start a new thread on it.  ;)  It would make an interesting discussion


Yes very much so, although I know opinions will differ massively. There are things I do have to do with Billy that I Know certain COL's wouldn't agree with.



Offline cdpops

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Re: is this the end for my boy?
« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2007, 05:41:00 PM »
Hello
I too have had difficulties with Charlie my two year old blue roan. At one point there was not a day went by when he didn't bite or attempt to bite somebody.
I saw 2 behaviorist and spoke to trainers in his class who all went down the dominance route and I am afraid to say i took there advice and it made things a million times worse.
We were eventually referred to an excellent behaviorist who has modern outlook and ideas and introduced clicker training and a positive consistent approach.
Now I am not saying Charlie is an angel he is not, by a long chalk, but he is much more positive and confident than he was and the incidences of aggression are now very few and far between and usually because we make mistakes.
The one thing I would say to you is, whatever you decide to try stick at it, we were taking advice from different people and trying that many different things Charlie must not have known where he was from one day to the next.
I too used a muzzle for a while, and it did have a two way positive effect people stayed away and I was more happy and relaxed this had a positive impact on Charlie. We did spend ages getting him used to it so that he saw it as a positive thing, we used a Baskerville type, not pretty but effective, and used to put a treat in the bottom of it and gradually got him used to the feel and sound of the fasteners.
Charlie only uses one now at times when I know he is likely to bite, and the situation cant be avoided, for example the groomers or travelling in the car.
I wish I had found this site sooner, there are so many people on here with so many good ideas and advice.
I hope things start to improve for you soon.
Claire

Offline patti

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Re: is this the end for my boy?
« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2007, 07:11:47 PM »
thanks so much claire.
Thanks for advice on muzzle.
I think Bailey is confused at the moment as we have changed our strategies again - the clicker is working well so far but he hasn't been in a 'stressful' situation yet.  This weekend will be a test - he is coming camping with us and last year it was a nightmare. 
One thing that is puzzling me with clicker and I can't find the answer in a book is - when bailey is barking do I ignore until he stops then click and treat or do I distract him (call name etc) and click and treat.  We have had a big family discussion about this today at tea time and I really don't know.  I want to get it right so that everybody in the family is doing the same thing.

Offline cdpops

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Re: is this the end for my boy?
« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2007, 08:25:35 PM »
I think that depends on why he is barking. Top barks will be able to help you with this.

Penel

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Re: is this the end for my boy?
« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2007, 08:48:07 PM »
I think there's a great big difference between "leader" and "boss"......... ;)

Offline Top Barks

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Re: is this the end for my boy?
« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2007, 10:23:42 PM »
I think there's a great big difference between "leader" and "boss"......... ;)
See what you mean Penel maybe a bad chice of words I am the  strong leader who also ensures his consistent rules are adhered to without the use of aversives would maybe be a better way of putting it.

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
Member of The Association Of Pet Dog Trainers (00977)
 
Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk

Offline Top Barks

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Re: is this the end for my boy?
« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2007, 10:27:25 PM »
thanks so much claire.
Thanks for advice on muzzle.
I think Bailey is confused at the moment as we have changed our strategies again - the clicker is working well so far but he hasn't been in a 'stressful' situation yet.  This weekend will be a test - he is coming camping with us and last year it was a nightmare. 
One thing that is puzzling me with clicker and I can't find the answer in a book is - when bailey is barking do I ignore until he stops then click and treat or do I distract him (call name etc) and click and treat.  We have had a big family discussion about this today at tea time and I really don't know.  I want to get it right so that everybody in the family is doing the same thing.

If you want to reinforce the barking then click when he barks.
If you want to stop the barking then click for quiet.
Let the dog work out for himself what works without you having to call him.

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
Member of The Association Of Pet Dog Trainers (00977)
 
Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk

Penel

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Re: is this the end for my boy?
« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2007, 11:53:37 AM »
I think there's a great big difference between "leader" and "boss"......... ;)
See what you mean Penel maybe a bad chice of words I am the  strong leader who also ensures his consistent rules are adhered to without the use of aversives would maybe be a better way of putting it.


I knew what you meant Mark  ;) I was just pointing out there is a difference between the two words IMO.  Perhaps like the difference between a dictatorship and a democracy ?

Offline CraftySam

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Re: is this the end for my boy?
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2007, 03:51:10 PM »
I have PM'd you Patti.
Sam is mum to - Sapphi (working black Lab 5 1/2 yrs), Max (Golden Retriever 4 yrs) Morgan (American Cocker 2 1/2yrs) and mum in spirit to Barney (English Cocker 3 1/2 yrs now living in Scotland)