OMG - just got advice from dog behaviourist

[caty]

As some of you may know, I've had problems with one of my (18 month old) dogs displaying signs of aggression toward other dogs when we're out walking. There have been no injuries or biting, it's more snapping and snarling which is worrying me. We have two dogs from the same litter - both male, one entire and one neutered (he had an un-descended testicle which had to be removed). Anyway, I decided to speak to a behaviourist about this , further to approaching our breeder for advice. His reply has really shocked me as he has told us that the problems we are experiencing is because we have littermates and now we have to do everything separately - feed them, walk them, crate them, play with them and train them separately. He says re-homing one of them is the ideal situation.

Please help - I can't face re-homing one as they're part of the family now and I love both of them so much. On the other hand I can't bear the thought that they're both stressed and unhappy and suffering problems all because they're from the same litter. He's also told me to stop taking away their food bowls as this will cause food guarding - so everything I've been taught and read and watched so far appears to be wrong! 

I'm really upset now that I've heard this and I don't know where to turn as everyone we speak to and every book we read ( I have the Cuture Clash book) tells us different things. Now I feel like a bad owner and I don't know which way to turn

[suzysu]

Aww so sorry to hear this Caty ..I have no experience but am sure someone will be along to help 

Hope you can manage to sort something out, I can understand how upsetting this must be for you..you are not a bad owner, you have been very sensible going to a behaviourist and you are considering your dogs future as well as yourself  (((hug))) x

[Jan/Billy]

Deep breaths , he can only advise you what to do, he can't force you. It's YOUR decision.

To me, time with the dogs on a one to one basis sounds like ok advice for the short term.  Not sure about the extent to which he has advised, am sure someone else will offer better advice on this as I only have the one dog.

He's also told me to stop taking away their food bowls as this will cause food guarding - so everything I've been taught and read and watched so far appears to be wrong! 

Definately 100% agree with him on this. Personally this is not something I'd encourage at all.

what have you been reading that has told you to do this?

the culture clash is a sound book in my opinion 

[Jan/Billy]

..you are not a bad owner, you have been very sensible going to a behaviourist and you are considering your dogs future as well as yourself  (((hug))) x

absolutely 

[PennyB]

He's also told me to stop taking away their food bowls as this will cause food guarding - so everything I've been taught and read and watched so far appears to be wrong! 

Definately 100% agree with him on this. Personally this is not something I'd encourage at all.

I gather you mean just keep taking bowls away randomly when there's still food in them (I've always been told its better to add food to the bowl rather than take it away)

[caty]

We were advised that taking away their bowls when they're pups is a good way to hinder food guarding and stop it developing and to demonstrate leadership. I know some people think this is an outdated approach now, but this is the only advice we had at the beginning and so we stuck with it. Now what we do is before we feed them we wait until they are calm and sitting before we put their bowls down and they know to wait for the cue before they can go to eat. We no longer take their bowls away, now that they're older as being around them and in close proximity to them when they're eating is never a problem.

We've never had any problems with them fighting each other or showing aggression towards us or anyone else. That's why I'm confused and upset by the behaviourist's response that they're better off apart.

[Jan/Billy]

He's also told me to stop taking away their food bowls as this will cause food guarding - so everything I've been taught and read and watched so far appears to be wrong! 

Definately 100% agree with him on this. Personally this is not something I'd encourage at all.

I gather you mean just keep taking bowls away randomly when there's still food in them (I've always been told its better to add food to the bowl rather than take it away)

Yes.

Billy doesn't eat from the bowl anymore, but when he did I often used to walk past and throw bits in. I can now put my hand in his bowl with no problems, but I wouldn't take it away.

Others may have different views on this though. I know some members say doing this helped their dog not to be food agressive but I wouldn't agree, just my opinion though

[Jan/Billy]

We were advised that taking away their bowls when they're pups is a good way to hinder food guarding and stop it developing

I think rather than simply taking them away, using a "swap" technique is more effective. So you take away their bowl for a few seconds but immediately give them something better than whats in their bowl ie a nice bit of chicken or ham. So they see you as taking their bowl away as a good thing because they then get goodies  rather than because you are the boss.

[spanielcrazy]

You're not a bad owner!  

There is so much information on dog training out there, and much of it contradictory. And so much of it makes sense when you are reading it but when you try to put it into practice... Part of the reason for all that  is that every dog has their own personality and quirks, and breed differences are very much a factor. If someone writes a training book who has trained nothing but German Shephards, then you try to use those methods on your Cavalier....you see my point  

Training methods have also changed dramatically over the years--for the better, I think We all make mistakes and continue to do so, and some of our experience and knowledge was very hard won.

What helps me is to try to apply common sense and to put myself in the dogs position. The perfect example of this is the food bowl thing. If every time I eat someone comes and tries to take the bowl from me before I've finished, is that going to make me feel more secure? I don't think so! On the other hand, if I were eating and were starting to get paranoid about someone taking my food, if a person walked by and dropped some double chocolate sin on my plate, I might perk up and think that people around my food is a very good thing!

Like Jan said, the behaviourist can't force, only advise. Next time you have a consult tell him that rehoming is not an option for you, that you need to set up a training program.

Did he discuss neutering the intact dog?

Best of luck to you and keep us informed. Don't beat yourself up, just keep looking forward-now you have a job to do!  

[kb]

Which dog is showing aggression towards other dogs - is it only to to other dogs or his littermate aswell?

I know people advise that is not always good to get 2 pups from the same litter at the same time, but don't know if you can say it is categorically the problem or if something else is contributing.

Why do you take the food bowls away? Do they guard food? Are there any other problems apart from aggression to other dogs?

I am no expert but have heard that it is good, to walk separately and train dogs separately, but I don't know if that has to be forever.

I suppose the thing to do is work with the dog that is behaving like that to the other dogs alone. He is probably not being aggressive, he is most possibly anxious.What has the behaviourist actually told you to do to remedy the situation?

For what it's worth this is what I would do. I would tale him somewhere where thetwo of you can sit and watch other dogs and people from a distance. Whne he sits calmly and watches give him a treat. You could then take him a little coser to watch, where some dogs may pass by. When you see them approach, have him in sit or down and show him the treat to get hom to focuson you rather tahn the dog passing by. If he remains clam and focused treat immediately and praise. Even if he looks at the dog but reamins calm, treat immediately. Keep working on this until he is successfully letting other dogs pass without becoming aggressive. Then progress to walking him past other dogs - show him the treat as the dog approaches, get him focused on you and walk past treating and praising as he remains calm. You oculd use a click and treat as well.

It sounds very simple, but if you remain calm and reward the good passes and ignore the bad ones. My cheeky girl makes a fuss walking past humans, or when humans walk past the car. Now as soon as she walks past people or people walk past the car, she automatically looks for her treat.

I also would stop taking the food bowls away, especially if food guarding is not an issue. If it is an issue, everyone else has given great advice about dropping extra food into the bowl. It is advice taht has definitely worked for us.

I would also consider speaking to a different behaviourist - you have 2 dogs, the best advice would be how to make life better for both of them. It doesn't sound in my limited experience, as if, at the moment, there is nothing that cannot potentially be resolved. I think rehoming one, would be a lst resort, rather than something that is suggested at the outset . Only my opinion - I nay be wrong though.

[caty]

Which dog is showing aggression towards other dogs - is it only to to other dogs or his littermate aswell?

It's the neutered dog that's showing aggression and it's only towards other dogs who come up to him. He's absolutely fine with his littermate and he's also fine when other dogs pass him by in the street - he doesn't tense up but stays calm. The problem is only around dogs that come up to investigate him. He doesn't want them near him and when he can't back away (I always have him on the lead- another piece of given advice) he snarls and lunges at the other dog. Usually they back away after that but there have been a couple of incidences where it seems to excite the other dog and that's where things escalate.

[caty]

Why do you take the food bowls away? Do they guard food? Are there any other problems apart from aggression to other dogs?

We only did this when they were puppies. We don't do it now, only train them to sit and remain calm before they get their food. They do not guard food - the only problem we have is the aggression towards dogs coming over to him.

[PennyB]

and now we have to do everything separately - feed them, walk them, crate them, play with them and train them separately. He says re-homing one of them is the ideal situation.

The only times when some of this is usually really necessary is when they are pups and learning so you can get them to focus on you more rather than on each other and even then you still do stuff with both dogs some fo the time anyway so I can't see why all this is relevant now. Training separately is always useful when problems arise though and as you're not having problems with them being together if it were me I'd still feed and walk them together but may be do additional training sessions yourself with the dog you're having problems with. I'd also may be use a good behaviourist or even dog trainer who has a stooge dog and do 1-2-1s to help you have strategies to deal with the current problem.

Periodically if one or the other or my two behaves badly I take them out for the odd 1-2-1 session to address the problem --- sometimes with a dog trainer so he can also see how I deal with it (often you can't 'see yourself' so useful to get someone else to see how you're dealing with stuff)

One good book that comes to mind is the clicking to calm book by Emma Parsons http://www.clickertraining.com/node/343

[Rhona W]

Firstly, I'd get a second opinion from another behaviourist.  It doesn't sound like he gave very constructive advice to me: rehome one and keep him on a lead all the time.  Very helpful - I don't think! 

Right. Now I've got that off my chest. 

I have litter mates, who are 16 months old. I too saw a behaviourist as we were having problems with how they reacted to other dogs. One of the first things I mentioned was that people said I shouldn't have had litter mates. My behaviourist said that that was irrelevant. It was a done deed (so to speak), that we loved them both and we needed help to work with them. Not once did she mention rehoming either of them.   

One of my boys is reactive whilst on-lead. At one of the training classes, he lunged and snapped at a GR that came running up to him and bounced on him. I was in tears at my viscious dog. But my trainer said his behaviour was perfectly acceptable. He was only telling the other dog to p!ss off (her words; not mine). The other dog was very rude in his approach and my dog was entitled to tell him to go away. 
He is actually a lot better off-lead, than on. If he doesn't like a dog that approaches him when he is off-lead, he will walk away.

How does your dog react when he is off the lead? Do you keep him on the lead and let his brother off? How does his brother react when he starts lunging at another dog? 

I do walk mine seperately as it gives me time to train them on their own. But they are feed, crated and play together the rest of the time.

[cdpops]

Hello
I can not help with the behaviour your dog displays, but I agree with Rhona you may need to get another behaviourist one who uses positive methods. I firstly had 2 really bad people give me advice which, knowing no better, I followed, this definitely made Charlie worse, and it took ages to turn things around when we finally got the right advice.
It is quite interesting as I have a similar issue at the moment but when Charlie is off lead, he is neutered and he seems uncomfortable around males that are not neutered that are younger than he is.
I hope you manage to solve your issues.
Claire