RAGE

[kalami]

My mother in law has a 19 week old black cocker puppy. She's been having a few 'issues' with her, the puppy is now biting and snapping and it has got to the point where she has contaced a behaviourist and this person has talked about 'RAGE'  to her.
Personally I think its how MIL is training (or not) her puppy, and with no ground rules a puppy being a puppy. We have tried to help and point her in the right direction, but she knows best (i could go on forever with issues - its not for the lack of trying on our part). We actually went over to stay for a few days thinking Bella and MIL puppy might bond, that we could help her out a little, but we only lasted one night, for hundreds of reasons - poor Bella was scared, we never got any sleep, we didn't approve of MIL 'training' techniques. Bella is such a  at times but compared to MIL puppy Bella is an 

Is this behaviourist talking cods wallop, or can a 19 week old puppy have 'RAGE'?
And how apart from enrolling her into training which we have enquired about and new classes now start in the new year, can we help.

Hope this makes sense.

[Joules]

Sounds like rubbish to me - true rage is very rare.  The behaviourist sounds a bit dodgy to me - is she experienced with cockers?? All puppies bite and snap - it is how they explore the world and at 19 weeks I would have thought it was normal puppy behaviour.  There are gentle but firm ways of dealing with this and the pup will learn what is and is not acceptable.  You mention your MIL's training methods - what is it she is doing that you didn't like?  If she is reacting inappropriately to what is most likely normal puppy behaviour then she is quite possibly making the situation a whole lot worse. 

Someone who knows better than me will be along soon but the way a puppy is trained and socialised in the early weeks and months will have a huge impact on that puppy later on so she it sounds like she might be storing up trouble for herself and the poor dog!    Sounds like she might have a very stressed pup there.    Must be frustrating for you if she uses outdated methods and doesn't listen but please persevere for the puppy's sake  A puppy class with a good trainer should help them both though but only if your MIL is prepared to learn!

[happydog]

I agree totally with Joules and absolutely everything she says!

[Jan/Billy]

Me too.


I'd suggest your MIL finds a behaviourist that has experience of cockers.

19 weeks is no age to write the poor thing off 

[happydog]

I think you need to get your MIL to join COL and read the puppy and behaviour sections 

Oh,    and ditch that 'behaviourist' right away - in favour of an APDT qualified and cocker friendly one.

http://www.apdt.co.uk/index2.htm

[Cazzie]

If this is the advice that certain behaviourists are giving out to inexperienced puppy owners then im off to jump of a cliff 

Get you MIL to get that pup to a reputable training class please 

[PennyB]

Sounds like the behavourist made their mind up once they knew (a) dog was a cocker and (b) a solid one. Sadly this happens all too often and dogs are probably pts as a result of what could just be a training issue.

I'm a great believer in that cockers aren't for everyone, as they can't quite get their heads round them as thye're often not exactly straighforward dogs

[happydog]

I'm a great believer in that cockers aren't for everyone, as they can't quite get their heads round them as thye're often not exactly straighforward dogs

That's so true Penny, you do need to be a certain type of person to get the best out of them and for them to get the best out of you.

[Cazzie]

I'm a great believer in that cockers aren't for everyone, as they can't quite get their heads round them as thye're often not exactly straighforward dogs

That's so true Penny, you do need to be a certain type of person to get the best out of them and for them to get the best out of you.

That is so very true, but its not just cocker pups that act in this way all pups do and as for that behaviourist I have a good clay trap here 

[Cob-Web]

Personally I think its how MIL is training (or not) her puppy, and with no ground rules a puppy being a puppy. We have tried to help and point her in the right direction, but she knows best (i could go on forever with issues - its not for the lack of trying on our part). ..........we didn't approve of MIL 'training' techniques.

Until positive, consistent training methods are applied, it is impossible to tell whether or not the puppy is just being a puppy, or whether there are underlying temperament/behavioural issues. 
Only one thing is certain - unless your MIL changes her approach, there is no chance of the puppy changing and I fear the result may be tragic 

[Jan/Billy]

Where is she based?


Perhaps someone on here knows a good behaviourist in her area?

[spettadog]

Hi

I used to have a professional dog walking business and one of my clients was a golden cocker spaniel.  The owner took her to the vets for her vacs and summer objected (as some dogs do!) the vet said that because she was a golden cocker she had RAGE.  I was absolutely horrified.  This little dog no more had rage than I have 2 heads!!!!  I told the owner that the vet was talking rubbish and she agreed with me.

What really annoys me about things like this is that unsuspecting people go to so called behaviourists so appear to have telepathy and can diagnose a problem over the phone without even seeing the dog.  It sounds to me as if MIL shouldnt really have a dog - especially not a puppy.  Did the behaviourist not say that this is perfectly normal puppy behaivour and its something that you have to train the puppy not to do - gently!!!  I suppose they then went on to say that if you sit in the dogs bed; eat before it; ignore it all the time then it will know you are pack leader and all these problems will stop!!!

God, I get sooooo mad when I hear things like this.

RAGE is a very very very rare phenomenon and the symptoms are certainly not what your MIL is experiencing.  A dog can be perfectly fine and then all of a sudden it goes into attack for no reason whatsoever.  Afterwards they are absolutely fine again and another episode may not happen for years.

I think the problem stems with the breeder selling a puppy to somebody without asking all the relevant questions as to whether that person is suitable to have one of their puppies.  Poor dog and poor you.  It would drive me nuts if I had to look at and hear about this from one of my relatives.

I think you can only advise but like has already been said, if she doesnt pull up her socks pretty quickly and realise that she is the person causing the problems, she is going to end up with a puppy and dog that has temperament issues.

This is exactly the type of owner that gets rid of the dog and leaves all the problems for somebody else to fix.  I have read posts on this forum relating to these sorts of issues that have clearly come from the original owners.  These poor people are left to pick up the pieces of an emotionally scarred dog.

Why dont you try buying her a really good, up to date training book.  There are great books out there giving advice on puppy behaviour and what to expect.  I used to advise The Perfect Puppy by Gwen Bailey, until I read it and realised there was a section about pack leadership.  I wonder if anybody else has any suggestions as to good, up to date, puppy books.

I hope this turns out to be OK>

Kind regards
Annie

[Jane S]

I used to advise The Perfect Puppy by Gwen Bailey, until I read it and realised there was a section about pack leadership.  I wonder if anybody else has any suggestions as to good, up to date, puppy books.

We have a book recommendation thread pinned to the top of this board which can be added to if people have any other suggestions. I'm now recommending the Pamela Dennison book to new puppy owners although The Perfect Puppy is still pretty good, especially in the way it prepares owners for the realities of owning and training a puppy.

[Robbie34]

I can't see how it can be diagnosed as rage at nineteen weeks.  

Clearly, your MIL is not being firm and consistent in bringing up her dog.  I don't profess to be an expert, but I have raised three Cocker Spaniels - one black, two golden -and I have never experienced that sort of behaviour.  You cannot allow puppies to have their own way, otherwise you end up with an undisciplined dog, that is no fun to own, and possibly can't be trusted.  A firm "NO" must mean precisely that, and the puppy must have clear boundaries of acceptable behaviour.  Positive reinforcement is essential, and smacking or hitting is out of the question.

I don't think my Charley would win any awards for obedience - he's a typical Cocker, and selectively deaf when we are out and he's off the lead - but at home he is well behaved and does as he is told: he is loving, and in turn is loved.  

[Top Barks]

Perfect puppy is still on my reccomended list, I just tell clients to ignore the pack theory stuff.
I take it you mean The complete idiots guide to positive dog training Jane?
This is a cracking little book that I cannot reccomend too highly. It is a great read for all dog owners alike.
I have had two black cocker puppies described as having rage to me this year when it was clear they had nothing of the sort.
All they were doing was displaying boisterous, inappropriate (in the human sense) play and attention seeking behaviour the sort of thing I see all the time. one family had even contacted Linda Ward cos someone told them to.
If they were Labs or collie's rage would not have been mentioned.
So much lack of understanding out there I'm afraid.
Mark