2) I give garlic, salmon oil, and / or evening primrose oil - and if I remember kelp powder every now and then.
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Penel - why do you supplement with these things?? What do they do??
I'll probably been shot down in flames for this, but if he's only finding it painful to poo since being fed raw bones, I'd be concerned.
Sorry :ph34r:
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No, hes fine now - just an imbalance of bones to meat - but we've got it right now :rolleyes:
Thanks for all the tips, everyone - Penel, where would I get "kelp" and how much do I give him?
You also need Omega 6 - and pref 9 too :) :P
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Thanks Penel - I've done some more reading and will use Sunflower Oil for the Omega-6 , and I have begun to add nuts to his bowl which have got Omega-9 :rolleyes:
Is there anything else I am missing??
IIYSWIM
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What does this mean? I keep seeing it on threads, at first i thought it was a big spelling mistake :lol:
IIYSWIM
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What does this mean? I keep seeing it on threads, at first i thought it was a big spelling mistake :lol:
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If You See What I Mean
Have a look here there is some info about EFA's near the bottom. Personally I wouldn't use sunflower oil, I only use Evening Primrose oil and Salmon oil with occasional cod liver oil - I don't think sunflower oil is high enough quality.
You should join the Britbarf group :)
http://www.naturespet.com/barfsupplements.html (http://www.naturespet.com/barfsupplements.html)
Re the nuts, I'm not sure if you have to grind them in order for him to digest them ? I used to grind flaxseed (sesame) myself, in a coffee bean grinder - but it was too much like hard work !!! :lol:
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Thanks Penel - still learning :)
I will definitely sign up for the BritBarf group - I have been looking for a good Raw Food forum - the one on the UK Barf Club site is really quiet ;) :ph34r:
IIYSWIM
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What does this mean? I keep seeing it on threads, at first i thought it was a big spelling mistake :lol:
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If You See What I Mean
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Thanks Gill :D
You also need Omega 6 - and pref 9 too :) :P
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Penel - would this help with dry skin?? We have been to the vet today to get stiches removed and the vet said Daisy had dry skin :( He thinks it may be the central heating.
Have a look here there is some info about EFA's near the bottom. Personally I wouldn't use sunflower oil, I only use Evening Primrose oil and Salmon oil with occasional cod liver oil - I don't think sunflower oil is high enough quality.
You should join the Britbarf group :)
http://www.naturespet.com/barfsupplements.html (http://www.naturespet.com/barfsupplements.html)
Re the nuts, I'm not sure if you have to grind them in order for him to digest them ? I used to grind flaxseed (sesame) myself, in a coffee bean grinder - but it was too much like hard work !!! :lol:
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I grind all the nuts and mix them in with the veg I blitz and freeze.
Claire - where do you get the salmon oil from and how do you get the garlic in the diet - is it fresh crushed garlic or powder or granuals or what??? [snapback]181531[/snapback]
I got the salmon oil here (http://www.canineconcepts.co.uk/item--Salmopet-Pure-Salmon-oil-300ml--salmon) - you can probably get it from Holland and Barrett or something though. With the garlic I either just chop a small amount (maybe quarter of a clove) up and mix it with her food, or if I'm blending up some veg I add a bit of garlic to that. Bella doesn't seem to mind it either way, to be honest the food barely touches the sides of her mouth so she's not too fussy. :D
Theories seem to vary on supplements needed, I'm only 2 months into this with Bella so still finding my feet with it. I only started adding the oils as a few people on Britbarf had mentioned it and Bella had developed a bit of dry skin which is now disappearing - not sure if the condition was part of her having had quite a big surgical procedure and then being confined very unhappily to a puppy pen for 2 weeks and getting very stressed out, or whether it was due to a lack of something in her diet, but either way it seems to have cleared up now. I think you probably just get to know the needs of your dog as you go along and then adjust the diet accordingly, some things will suit some dogs and not others. :)
She keeps trying to mug the others for their bones
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:lol: :lol: :lol: the thought of Tilly, with her lampshade, mugging the rest of the crew for their bones is hilarious :ph34r: Sorry Tilly ;) Now if she was trying to mug the little guy - that I could understand :P
I am having my wisdom teeth out tomorrow
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Good luck Rachel - hope you feel better soon :D
She keeps trying to mug the others for their bones
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:lol: :lol: :lol: the thought of Tilly, with her lampshade, mugging the rest of the crew for their bones is hilarious :ph34r: Sorry Tilly ;) Now if she was trying to mug the little guy - that I could understand :P
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size doesn't come into it - Tilly is in charge and they all know it.... besides - little guy isn't arriving til tomorrow !!! :) the lampshade is OFF - woohoo !!!
I know I've said it before Shona - but I really was exactly like you before I fed this way :) I used to vehemently argue with people why NOT to feed raw !!!! years of experience now though, and chatting to several vets who are pro raw feeding, and I feel differently, obviously ! (I'm not trying to change your mind though I promise !)
Garlic - good for deterring worms n fleas apparently... natural immune "booster".
Salmon oil and EPO - good for coat and numerous other things - basically essential fatty acids, omega 3,6,9 - or you can just get Omega 3,6,9 capsules from Holland & Barrett.
I get kelp powder from www.dorwest.com they also do another good herbal mix called Keepers Mix - they also sell TreeBarks powder, which is Slippery Elm - the most fabulous powder to give to dogs (and people) with upset tummies.... Dorwest usually have a stand at Crufts if you are going.
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I've chatted to lots of vets that aren't pro-raw feeding, and have had very different answers I bet. ;) I've also talked to undecided vets, but I haven't met one yet who is pro, to be honest.
I'm sure there are lots of dogs who do fine on it, but I don't get the positives - bone itself isn't particularly nutritious, apart from the marrow, of course the teeth benefits are positive, but I don't even let my dogs play with sticks because of the splinters and their palate. Anal glands - yes, but neither of mine have problems or have them emptid, on a non barf diet, and their teeth are fine too, not a spot of tartar.
Since I have been at the vets, we have had a dog brought in with a bone wedged in it's palate, which had punctured it, and one that had on removed from it's stomach surgically. I don't like this diet being promoted as fabulous all round - I'd feel better about it if there were also information given on the downsides, like there are pointed out all the time to non barf feeders, and what to watch out for.You must have some ngative stories too?
I also think worming is very important if a dog is eating raw, and vital if there are children in the house.
I was the same as you a few months ago, Shona - its been all the info on here that has driven me to read up loads - and so far, it seems to suit us :) We can always go back to kibble if we decide its not for us (Molo might not be too impressed though :rolleyes: )
One thing that has always slightly worried me about feeding dry food is the long term risk to the kidneys due to the lack of water in the diet - a dry diet relies on the dog to drink enough <_< The first difference I have noticed with the BARF diet is that Molo is peeing a lot more because there is more liquid in his diet - which can only be a good thing :)
It has led to some very odd comments though - has anyone else been told that feeding raw meat will turn your dog vicious?? :blink:
Thanks for all the help - I'm sure I'll be back with more questions ;) Molo's not had any breakfast yet this morning; I came down to find he had been sick, so I'm waiting to see if its a one-off or a bug :(
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Bel;ieve me Rachel, I've read a lot on the subject - both for and against. Just because I don't agre or haven't changed my mind, dosn't equate to not having read enough. ;)
Bel;ieve me Rachel, I've read a lot on the subject - both for and against. Just because I don't agre or haven't changed my mind, dosn't equate to not having read enough. ;)
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I agree that all the text available is positive and one sided - although John Burns, for whom I have a lot of respect, has written a very interesting article, challenging Ian Billinghursts theory ;)
Not having access to many different vets, it is difficult for me to canvas their opinion - but the clinic I am currently registered with sell petfood which is full of ingredients such as maize, soybean extract, egg - all of which I avoided pre-BARF - and if the vets are prepared to endorse these products, I don't think they would share my overall philisophy of avoiding un-natural ingredients ;)
In my limited experience - 2 weeks of full BARFing, and giving Molo occasional raw bones since he was a pup - we have not experienced any negative reactions/incidents - maybe because as Claire says, I am careful about what and how I give them to him ;) I genuinely would like to hear of any cases where an informed/supervised BARF diet has led to problems/injuries......it may lead to me deciding it is too much of a risk :)
Bel;ieve me Rachel, I've read a lot on the subject - both for and against. Just because I don't agre or haven't changed my mind, dosn't equate to not having read enough. ;)
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I agree that all the text available is positive and one sided - although John Burns, for whom I have a lot of respect, has written a very interesting article, challenging Ian Billinghursts theory ;)
Not having access to many different vets, it is difficult for me to canvas their opinion - but the clinic I am currently registered with sell petfood which is full of ingredients such as maize, soybean extract, egg - all of which I avoided pre-BARF - and if the vets are prepared to endorse these products, I don't think they would share my overall philisophy of avoiding un-natural ingredients ;)
In my limited experience - 2 weeks of full BARFing, and giving Molo occasional raw bones since he was a pup - we have not experienced any negative reactions/incidents - maybe because as Claire says, I am careful about what and how I give them to him ;) I genuinely would like to hear of any cases where an informed/supervised BARF diet has led to problems/injuries......it may lead to me deciding it is too much of a risk :)
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I'd love to see more unbiased avvounts too, the point I was making is th assumption that people who do not BARF feed, do so because they haven't read enough, which is the way your initial comment cam across. I'd nevr dream of saying to a parent *I used to think like you too, but then I saw the light* idea.
Personally, I won't take the risk. I'm going to ask at work about the incidents I mentioned, and see if I can find out more, but I don't get how sticks ar not good, and crunching through bone is? Cany anyone shed some light on that one http://www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk/BARF_Raw_Food_Diet.htm (http://www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk/BARF_Raw_Food_Diet.htm)?
Edited to include the Burns link - I've read it before, but maybe others haven't.Have to say the following quote resonated thoroughly
*BARFism puts forward a flawed theory with a certainty which bears comparison to religious fundamentalism; it brooks no dissent. It advocates a system which is impractical and does not fit well into the lifestyle of present society, denying the possibility of alternatives, thereby condemning those pet owners, the majority, to feelings of inadequacy for failure to follow its teachings.*
Personally, I won't take the risk. I'm going to ask at work about the incidents I mentioned, and see if I can find out more, but I don't get how sticks ar not good, and crunching through bone is? Cany anyone shed some light on that one http://www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk/BARF_Raw_Food_Diet.htm (http://www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk/BARF_Raw_Food_Diet.htm)?
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would the bone incidents be with cooked bones though as this would make a difference (mine occasionally get 'stolen' bones from someone's rubbish which are a no-no but do occasionally get given raw chicken wings).
Personally, I won't take the risk. I'm going to ask at work about the incidents I mentioned, and see if I can find out more, but I don't get how sticks ar not good, and crunching through bone is? Cany anyone shed some light on that one http://www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk/BARF_Raw_Food_Diet.htm (http://www.burns-pet-nutrition.co.uk/BARF_Raw_Food_Diet.htm)?
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would the bone incidents be with cooked bones though as this would make a difference (mine occasionally get 'stolen' bones from someone's rubbish which are a no-no but do occasionally get given raw chicken wings).
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I'm going to find out.
I'd love to see more unbiased avvounts too, the point I was making is th assumption that people who do not BARF feed, do so because they haven't read enough, which is the way your initial comment cam across. I'd nevr dream of saying to a parent *I used to think like you too, but then I saw the light* idea.
Shona, I'm sorry, I did not realise my comments could be taken that way :( I was only explaining what changed MY mind; I was not suggesting that you had not read up about it or that if you did you would feel the same way - that would be so arrogant and I'm really sorry if I sounded like that :( :(
There is a theme of *fundamentalism* running through a lot of raw feeding references that I have read.....I hope I have managed to maintain a scientific scrutiny of the evidence - I certainly seem to being using Google Scholar daily to find journal references and research papers on all aspects of canine nutrition :rolleyes: It is one of those subjects that taps into some primative passion though; a couple of doggie people have asked how the new diet is going and I find myself still talking about it after 5 minutes, when they were only expecting a "fine, thanks" :rolleyes: :lol:
I agree with you about playing with sticks - I'm totally paranoid; but I have never seen a raw bone spinter in the same way..... :unsure: I gave Molo a roast knuckle once when he was pup, and that splintered into really sharp shards, but none of the raw bones I have evner given Molo have broken in this way; maybe we're lucky ?? :unsure:
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Och I'm osrry too - it's a bit of a hot button for me. It takes me back to the breat/bottle debates I used to have on another board! :rolleyes:
Personally - I have no negative experiences. :)
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Rachel's post illustrates my experience quite well. She was asked if Molo was still finding it painful to poo, which hadn't been discussd in this thread, obviously in a PM or off board.
I'm sure there are negatives to it, but they may not be discussed. ;)
I was the only on out of everyone I knew to avoid the Atkins diet. :)
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Now, theres something we do agree on, Shona :lol: :lol:
Personally - I have no negative experiences. :)
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Rachel's post illustrates my experience quite well. She was asked if Molo was still finding it painful to poo, which hadn't been discussd in this thread, obviously in a PM or off board.
I'm sure there are negatives to it, but they may not be discussed. ;)
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Oh, I did - in a thread called "Raw Bones" - here (http://cockersonline.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=14602&hl=) I would never try and "cover up" any negatives - I really have gone into this with an open mind; and still have a whole bag of Burns to use "in case" it doesn't work out :rolleyes:
Personally - I have no negative experiences. :)
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Rachel's post illustrates my experience quite well. She was asked if Molo was still finding it painful to poo, which hadn't been discussd in this thread, obviously in a PM or off board.
I'm sure there are negatives to it, but they may not be discussed. ;)
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Oh, I did - in a thread called "Raw Bones" - here (http://cockersonline.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=14602&hl=) I would never try and "cover up" any negatives - I really have gone into this with an open mind; and still have a whole bag of Burns to use "in case" it doesn't work out :rolleyes:
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You did, I apologise.
Personally - I have no negative experiences. :)
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Rachel's post illustrates my experience quite well. She was asked if Molo was still finding it painful to poo, which hadn't been discussd in this thread, obviously in a PM or off board.
I'm sure there are negatives to it, but they may not be discussed. ;)
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I'd agree with you there - Bella's been sick a few times so that's one negative thing (then again on kibble she used to fairly often throw up bile in the mornings and no longer does this) but I'm learning as I go along that it's about just finding the correct foods for her - I now know that she is a guzzler and will be sick if she eats a whole chicken wing or rabbit leg, but will be fine if these are minced; bones with too much fat give her the squits, etc etc. I think for me I don't necessarily think of the times she's been sick as negatives, more as a learning experience from which I find out what does/doesn't suit her as an individual.
I never thought I'd feed Bella raw food, in the end it has just turned out that way. :)
As for pooing being painful - that is because Molo had full anal glands, I would predict (and I know Rachel will keep us updated :lol: ) that this won't happen again, as they will get naturally emptied more regularly now.
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With mine they get a little constipated as well when I feed the little raw I do (easily solved I know but it does happen).
Barley threw up a chicken wing last night but that's not a negative thing, its normal - he's a dog - he ate it too fast, without chewing - so he threw it up, chewed it up,and ate it again - it really does not worry me. :)
As for pooing being painful - that is because Molo had full anal glands, I would predict (and I know Rachel will keep us updated :lol: ) that this won't happen again, as they will get naturally emptied more regularly now.
There is someone on the Britbarf group with a Von Willebrands dog (another bleeding disorder) - she just grinds all its bones - he doesn't eat them whole.
I know raw feeding doesn't suit everyone, and you do have to do a heck of a lot of reading and research to be comfortable to do it - at least I know I did, and I had a lot of support from the Chairman of the BAHVS, Chris Day, who was Saffy's homeopathic vet - he has been raw feeding for about 40 years now. Lola's current homeopathic vet Mark Elliott told me something interesting - his previous practice - stopped selling "dog foods" - and promoted raw feeding, and stopped annual vaccinations.... their clientele doubled, and their income halved.
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What is the benefit of grinding bones, just calcium, or anal glands? Bran would have the same effect, no?
We as a practice are stopping giving out puppy packs, and will be giving out natural foods hopefully, and I've been at the forefront of that. Certain dog foods advertising works vry well, especially the naming of it, and customers believ it, so it's slow to start. We'll get there though. We do sell prescription foods for specific conditions, but we don't push them, and we don't sell food in the window for instance.
I'm not sure if income halving is a good thing - I know for a fact our vets (not the partners of which there are three, just your standard vet) are badly paid, some of them are struggling financially five years after graduating, I was gobsmacked when I found out what they were on! At the end of the day, it's a business like anything else, but hopefully we can promote a trend for more natural foods, I'm sure that will be a great start.
The young vets especially are great - tonight one of thm was telling a clint not to bother with special diets for flaky skin, just change to Burns, and try EPO - they really don't like hard selling which is good.
Obviously their income halved because their "clients" were healthier as a result of their advice - surely that has to be a good thing ? :)
Mark has told me that he often sees a new client only once - and that the main part of his "prescription" is a change of diet, to a raw diet - and really often that solves the problem. How many homeopathic vets have you asked about raw diets Shona, or have they all been "conventional" vets ?
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I have spoken to only one homeopathic vet - we don't sem to have many up here, near us.I have to say, I'm not a homeopathy fan. Some bits are valid, but I think they should be used under supervision by a qualified vet/doctor. Also, it doesn't work with the big things.
Of course it's good the clients are healthier - the point we don't agree on is the fact it takes a diet containing bones to make them that way ;) Also, I don't think a diet of factory chicken bones will be any better than a lot of kibbles/good quality dog food.
A homeopathic vet is a fully qualified conventional vet before they do extra training to be a homeopathic vet........... not sure what you mean about it not working for the big things !!! ok homeopathy can't magically sew back on an injured limb - but for Lola it has definitely made a huge difference with her "setter" skin problems. I personally have had some tremendous results with homeopathy, I guess its another thing that until you have seen success yourself you are bound to be sceptical.
I'm not recommending people feed a diet of factory farmed chicken bones :) I think you are slightly exaggerating Shona ;) My dogs eat organic chicken carcasses, organic lamb ribs and various bones, organic pork bones - and tripe, mainly. Lots of variety, apart from Lola who is allergic to everything apart from the pork and tripe.
They also eat tinned pilchards, sardines, and healthy left overs. :)
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That's my point - your dogs I'm sure don't eat unorganic, but not everyone has that availability, and aren't feeding organic, in which case I wonder how much difference it makes.
My comment about homeopathy means I think in combination with medicinal products, yes, I think it can have a small effect, but it's very different clearing up a skin allrgy to treating a dog with cancer, and the stakes are much higher, I think you'll find a lot of people like the idea- but when it comes to the crunch, will happily take the conventional treatment. I'm one of those people - I keep arnica in the house, had a home birth drug free - but had there been a problm, I would have been straight off to hospital.