CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Feeding => Topic started by: kb on June 03, 2006, 12:13:44 PM
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I have been fascinated by the discussions I have been having on another thread about raw feeding and would be interested in hearing the opinions of those who are for and against it. In fairness to the original post of the thread, I thought it might be better to open a new thread. I am genuinely interested in the debate and would like to know if I am the only one out there who is unsure about it?
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I will be raw feeding my 2 (once they're home from quarantine and settled) as I feel they would benefit from it. My only concern is that I might get quantities wrong, or I might miss out something really important. I'd love to find a website that stated exact quantities/ingredients until I'm confident enough to go it alone :-\.
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I do not feed it, but am very interested in the debate. I can not help you with quantities but I am sure someone will be along who can - I know there are definitely people here who do feed it. Can I ask what it is that you feel is positve about this diet and why you have decided to try it?
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I would never even consider raw feeding or barfing, a dog is not a wild animal, its a domesticated animal that has wild ancestors, the dogs body is now IMO not designed for feeding raw meat too ;) Although I am sure someone will be along to try and prove me wrong, but tbh I wouldn't necessarily believe anything thats written in a book as for every book that recommends it there is another contradicting it, so that proves absolutely jack to me ;)
I'm sure the people who barf have their reasons and if they are happy with it great :D I just get a tad fed up of the preaching about the subject >:D
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I feed BARF ;) My dogs were both weaned to BARF as pups by their breeder.
She feeds all her cockers BARF and they look amazing!!! :D
People often comment on how shiney and silky my dogs coats are and how healthy they look. As you all know I groom alot but I dont think its down to that I think its down to BARF that they both have a healthy sheen! I promise I'm not preaching Em! :-* and I know Indie has a lovely healthy shiney coat :-*
My vet is very impressed by the condition of my dogs teeth, amongst other things and is more than happy that I feed BARF.
I understand why some people dont agree with it and I respect how they feel. All I know is BARF works very well for me and the dogs and so I will always stick to it. I'm sure people who feed complete etc feel that there dogs have lovely shiney coats etc too.
What we feed is up to each individual, like I said though it works for me and I am more than happy to stick with it!
I hope this BARF chat stays friendly!! ph34r :005: And the end of the day we all do what we believe is best for our dogs ;) so how can any of us be wrong with those intentions!! ;)
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I have no interested in Barf Diets either - Fair play to those who have the time and stomach to do it. I do not. :D
I am sure there are many highs and lows to all types of diets, so its really about what suits you and your dog. Jazz eats Burns dry food. Has a lovely silky glossy coat, and has been speyed. :D
If i give her a meal of chicken she ends up eating her own poo, >:( she does not do this with the burns. SO as I get lots of cocker kisses - dry food is ok to me !!! ;)
Besides I wanna throw up if I smell raw food. Also from a time point of view. Its much quicker. Which suits my life style. ph34r
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I hope this BARF chat stays friendly!! ph34r :005: And the end of the day we all do what we believe is best for our dogs ;) so how can any of us be wrong with those intentions!! ;)
Exactly Lisa:D
Ps: You never preach ;) :lol:
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I will be raw feeding my 2 (once they're home from quarantine and settled) as I feel they would benefit from it. My only concern is that I might get quantities wrong, or I might miss out something really important. I'd love to find a website that stated exact quantities/ingredients until I'm confident enough to go it alone :-\.
To be honest quantities differ from dog to dog, well thats how I work with BARF anyway, for example three chicken wings or three ribs would be too much for Nancy 2 would be plenty for her but Milo could easily stomach 3 and I have Mich's Bailey here at the mo and he would easily have four!! The same with quanitites of mince really. If your dogs are maintaining there weight then you are probably feeding plenty if they have lost or put on then you may want to adjust it.
As for ingredients there are loads of things you can add to a BARF diet, mashed potatoes, porridge, pasta (although some BARFERS debate pasta), rice, herbs dried or fresh..................the list goes on! If you let me know exactly what you want to know then I'm sure I'll be able to help xxx
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I hope this BARF chat stays friendly!! ph34r :005: And the end of the day we all do what we believe is best for our dogs ;) so how can any of us be wrong with those intentions!! ;)
Exactly Lisa:D
Ps: You never preach ;) :lol:
Hee hee well maybe a little bit about grooming!!! ph34r :005: :-*
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Silkstocking - Is it Lisa?
I hope I am not prying, but did I read somewhere that you are pregnant? -hope that is not being cheeky! Are there any special precautions you need to take feeding Barf while pregnant? or with young children?
I do not feed raw and do not see myself ever doing it, but am genuinely interested in the debate. I know we clashed in a previous thread, but I was very uptight then about Honey's behaviour - I am sorry about that. I am much morereassured now and things have settled a lot. I too hope to learn from this debate and would like it to be as friendly as possible. I hope I have not opened a can of worms!
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I think it's a case of each to their own, and what suits our dogs best ;) Nell (blacklab) is fed on Burns and Nature Diet. Her coat is very glossy, we always get comments about how fit heathy and trim she looks from our vet too ;)..... Nell is nearly six now and her teeth are pure white and without a hint of tartar. To be fair though, i think that's down to the marrow bones we give her once a fortnight.
I'm quite happy with what i'm feeding my girl, if it didn't suit her, and her condition wasn't good, then i would definatly change her diet but it wouldn't be Barf, ive got no interest in it either ;) Although i have a friend who swears by it, it's just not for me or should i say Nell :005:
Years ago, dogs used to be fed on scraps from the table. :-\ The dog my hubby had as a youngster was fed this way, and he lived till he was eighteen. and was as fit as a fiddle, considering his diet ;)
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I see what you are saying Emma, maybe for a domestic dog it is not 'natural' to eat raw. But how 'natural' is dried dog food. Exactly what have they done to chicken etc to produce these dry pellets??? To my mind that is even more unnatural??? Yes it is a complete meal, but I can't help but feel it is too overprocessed......
At the moment I have one foot in either camp, have decided to try raw, but if after a period of say 5 months it does not suit then we will change back...
I think with raw feeding you can take it as far as you want to. In the first instance I am looking at feeding raw minced meats (AMP and Nature's Menu), which are very similar to wet dog food but not cooked ... Apart from remembering to take it out of the freezer, and preparing some whizzed up raw veggies for freezing once in a while, it should not be any more difficult than feeding pre-prepared conventional dog food.
I am certainly not looking to do away with conventional dog food and throw Dill a rabbit, fur and all..... (for Dill that would so not be natural :005:)
If I had found a dog food that Dill was happy with then I would probably still be vehemently anit-raw.....
But, dry food gave him the runs, nature diet gives him a mucus sleeve, and on top of that he has smelly breath and weepy eyes..... After extensive research, and ClaireP4's account of how raw helped Bella, I have decided to give it a go.....
It may not work, Dill may not take to it, or I may not be able to cope with it, but I won't know till I have tried....
I don't like dismissing something without trying. (well, most things, you will never ever get me to bungee jump :005:)
However, I don't like the 'holier than thou' attitude that sometimes comes with raw feeding (some of the websites I browsed seemed to have this attitude) and I agree that we should all do what we feel is best for our dogs....
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I've recently considered feeding Milo a BARF diet. This is mainly because he's quite a fussy eater and I've heard many fussy eaters are transformed once they're fed a BARF diet. I've also heard people say that their BARF fed dogs have better skin and coats, cleaner teeth, cleared anal gland problems, less flea/worm/tick problems, fresher breath etc etc since changing to a BARF diet. I'm simply considering it because a lot of processed dog foods are full of additives, preservatives etc and Milo is as important to us as our human friends and family. I try to eat healthily myself, although I'm certainly no :angel: and it just follows that I want to do the same for Milo. (Not that I think people who feed processed dog food don't have their dog's best intentions in mind or have unhealthy dogs! My last Cocker was fed on a variety of food, table scraps etc and lived to be 15, never being ill in his life.)
However, if BARF doesn't suit him, I have no objections with feeding him the best quality pre-prepared dog food I can lay my hands on. I'm only looking into at the moment, and, like Petra, my only concerns are what quantities to feed, and what supplements, if any, need to be added.
I've re-read a dozen times hoping I haven't offended anyone or preached, apologies in advance if I have! :D
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I'm a raw feeder, by Daisy's choice not mine! She has some psychological block to biscuit! I think she may have been fed kibble in her previous home and she was definitley fed it at the rescue centre and she refuses point blank to eat it. I know the theory of let her get hungry enough and she'll eat anything but tbh if she has that much of a 'thing' about it I am not going to force her.
So I started feeding Daisy raw about a month after she joined us (18 months ago). I truly believe that is why she is so fit and healthy. I'm not going to preach - as Lisa says we all do what we believe to be best for our dogs - but I really like it as a way of feeding and tbh I find it easy, I dont stress about it like I used to, but I am still learning and asking questions, because even amongst BARFers there are variations and differing opinions.
For me and my dogs its great and I will always feed this way, but for others it doesnt suit. If we were all the same it would be sooooo boring!! ;)
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I had never heard of Barf feeding before I joined COL and I do find it interesting. But I don't feel it is right for me at the moment. The main reason being I would be too worried that I wasn't feeding them the right balance of nutrients. Secondly, it all sounds very time consuming. Sorry if that makes me sound like I wouldn't be prepared to make an effort for my puppies; I don't mean it like that. But I have to be realistic. I work part-time and am a full time taxi driver for my 4 children. :005: So processed dog food is convenient and gives me peace of mind for now.
( If it makes me sound more caring I did go and see a representative from Arden Grange today and will be changing to their food over the next few days! )
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When I first heard about BARF feeding I thought thy were all a bunch of nutters ;) Now - I still think it - its just I joined in!!! :005: :005: :005:
No - seriously - what ever diet you feed has to be right for the dog and for you - and until you have the time and confidence - you'll never feel happy about it.
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I'm a raw feeder, by Daisy's choice not mine! She has some psychological block to biscuit! I think she may have been fed kibble in her previous home and she was definitley fed it at the rescue centre and she refuses point blank to eat it. I know the theory of let her get hungry enough and she'll eat anything but tbh if she has that much of a 'thing' about it I am not going to force her.
So I started feeding Daisy raw about a month after she joined us (18 months ago). I truly believe that is why she is so fit and healthy. I'm not going to preach - as Lisa says we all do what we believe to be best for our dogs - but I really like it as a way of feeding and tbh I find it easy, I dont stress about it like I used to, but I am still learning and asking questions, because even amongst BARFers there are variations and differing opinions.
For me and my dogs its great and I will always feed this way, but for others it doesnt suit. If we were all the same it would be sooooo boring!! ;)
ooooh princess daisy - you fussy cow :luv: :luv: :luv:
i struggle with jarv and food - i have never met a dog until now who is disinterested in eating....
i am trying to make him more barf inclined as i actually prefer this style of feeding (personal choice innit!?)
...at the moment i feed him burns mixed with naturediet or natures menu -
i have tried chicken wings and sometimes he likes 'em, sometimes he doesn't. same with lamb breast ( :o ::) :o) and pork bones...he will eat carrots and bits of other raw food (eggs as we all know!) ....which i try and add to his diet
today i bought hims some forthglade freeflow 'barfer' mince - lamb with veg...HURRAH!!! he likes it... so i'm going to try him on the mince a bit more
so really, i'm a combo-feeder.... ph34r
(ooh...and kb...i'm so pleased to read that you and honey are doing so well ;))
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i struggle with jarv and food - i have never met a dog until now who is disinterested he will eat carrots and bits of other raw food (eggs as we all know!) ....which i try and add to his diet
Your post made me think actually (now theres a first :lol:) I do combo feed to a point, but I draw a complete line at chicken wings and raw meat of any kind ;) Indie gets fed on Arden Grange she was an utterly fussy madam untill I found AG which I now swear by :D But, I also give her raw vegetables, as she loves them and can't resist them :005: She has a lovely silky glossy coat, is very healthy, has no tummy troubles with either squits or constipation so this method is definatly working for her, I would never change anything unless it was broken as it has taken me 2.5 years to get her to eat food, its suits us and her fine. Don't get me wrong I didn't want to come across as knocking people who Barf/raw, its personal choice :D But noone will ever convince me its the way to go with Indie ;)
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Your post made me think actually (now theres a first :lol:)
:rofl1: :rofl1: you crack me up ;)
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Silkstocking - Is it Lisa?
I hope I am not prying, but did I read somewhere that you are pregnant? -hope that is not being cheeky! Are there any special precautions you need to take feeding Barf while pregnant? or with young children?
I do not feed raw and do not see myself ever doing it, but am genuinely interested in the debate. I know we clashed in a previous thread, but I was very uptight then about Honey's behaviour - I am sorry about that. I am much morereassured now and things have settled a lot. I too hope to learn from this debate and would like it to be as friendly as possible. I hope I have not opened a can of worms!
I am pregnant yes ;) but no I dont take any special precautions to feed BARF now that I'm pregnant! Apart from my OH is feeding the dogs a bit more but thats more becuse I am knackered!!!!!! :005:
My dogs eat their raw bones in the kitchen or the garden, I clean the kitchen floor every day anyway so that clears up any raw food matter!!!! And the mince and stuff is so easy the dogs wolf it down and I clear the bowls.
I learnt about BARF from my dogs breeders, who I trust implicitly about all things doggie!! I have to say the vet talked me in to trying Milo on some dried food because my boy doesnt keep much weight on, and I honestly noticed a huge difference in his coat, a lot less shine and in the stinks coming from his bottom!!! :005: Nor did he put any weight on so I went back o BARF and Milo is much happier that way he didnt get the dry thing at al he didnt like eating dry foodl!! But it is something he has never had, for my two it would have meant a big change in diet for me to have fed them anything different as they were weaned on BARF.
When I first joined COL I started a BARF thread and I cringed badly that I had! I hadnt realised it was such an immotive debate!! Thats why I mentioned keeping the thread friendly! No other reason :D I'd forgotten all about the Honey thread ;) but I'm pleased things have settled for you :D
There is huge debate amongst people with regard to BARF, all I can say again is, it works for us, we don't find it hard work or that it takes extra time. I have friends who have swapped to BARF because they have felt after seeing the way my two are fed that they would like to try it and their dogs have thrived on it.
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Seeing firsthand the dogs and getting advice from a very experienced/educated dog person (who never pressured me) was why I changed Bailey over to raw feeding in the first place. I feed something similiar to Petra (i.e., commercially minced raw meat and ground bone w/ supplements + ground veggie mix) so it's not that time consuming, although more expensive than preparing it yourself. Bailey also gets a recreational bones on ocassion. He's doing well health-wise and I think seeing him enjoy his food so much was one of the reasons I stayed with this...from a dog that used to turn his nose up at his Eukanuba kibble (what the breeder fed him) or even with high-quality complete foods. I think feeding well-prepared home-cooked foods or a high-quality complete food is compareable too.
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I feed raw too, but it's not BARF.
I decided to change when I got Penny and have been very happy with the results and as you know I am weaning a litter of pups onto raw.
I don't feed mince, (except at present I give a bit to my pups), I only buy meat which is fit for human consumption and cut it into chunks. If it's not raw, then I don't give it anymore.
I have got a routine and I don't find I put myself out to feed this way and all in all it probably costs the same amount as a prescription diet.
Penny is the only dog I have ever had that truly loves her food, well and the pups, they actually cry for their tea when I am preparing it and as soon as they get in their dish it's gone!
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I have 3 dogs, Mikey does very well on raw, Herbie can eat absolutely anything dry, wet, raw and it doesn't really make much difference and Ronald after having tried him a few times on raw is back onto dry food - he loves raw food but raw food does not love him :D.
I now feed Mikey and Herbie on raw, I am pregnant too and have 2 children. I don't take any special measures as you have to be extra careful with raw food anyway. Ronald is on dry.
I wanted to give raw a try and like feeding it and my dogs enjoy it but if it didn't suit them like it doesn't suit Ronald I would have gone straight back onto dry. I might be strange but I actually enjoy buying the meat at the butchers and cutting it up and bagging it for my dogs meals :005:.
I s'pose it's personal preference for doggie and owner ;)
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Do you feed carbohydrate and is in what form. I sometimes give Honey home cooked food - although have been told to avoid too much chicken because of the very high protein content. I also fed her rice, pasta and potatoes for carbohydrate - as well as veg in her diet too. But when I was reading around I read that rice (neither white or wholemeal)and pasta were not suitable because of the link to diabetes in dogs. Rolled Oats and maize and so on were recommended instead. When they say rolled oats do they mean the same as you make porridge with?
She loves home cooked food and itis a pleasure to make it for her - but raw meat worries me. But I would like to know I am feeding her the right balance when I cook.
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Do you feed carbohydrate and is in what form. I sometimes give Honey home cooked food - although have been told to avoid too much chicken because of the very high protein content. I also fed her rice, pasta and potatoes for carbohydrate - as well as veg in her diet too. But when I was reading around I read that rice (neither white or wholemeal)and pasta were not suitable because of the link to diabetes in dogs. Rolled Oats and maize and so on were recommended instead. When they say rolled oats do they mean the same as you make porridge with?
She loves home cooked food and itis a pleasure to make it for her - but raw meat worries me. But I would like to know I am feeding her the right balance when I cook.
Pototoes and porridge, yum yum yum!! milos favourites!!!
From what I have read the jury is out about pasta and rice, but then the jury is out about soooo many things! ;) You have to make your on judgements.
I have no worries with raw, none what so eve, I honestly mean that. But I have so much contact with so many dogs who are fed a raw diet and I can honestly say they thrive and have few health problems, and non relating to diet. My friend has 12 cockers all fed a raw diet, the oldest cocker is 17!! Its suited him no problmeo!!! But I understand why people may worry, if I did not have it infront of me on a daily basis then it might concern me, buit honestly it doesnt.
I've said it before, and I dont wish to sound like a broken record, but we feed what we feed because we feel it is right for our dogs, would it have been right for me to change the diets of two pups who had been weaned onto BARF, I dont think so............
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I think I worry about the kids too. I have a 7 year old and a three year old, who obviously share the same play places as Honey (she toilets in the garden also - not the kids) and i feel if there is any risk to them (especially with things like toxoplasmosis) I owe them to be cautiousl. I have a cat and have always been a bit paranoid about toxoplasmosis - but her toileting and eating habits are much more civilised than Honeys (and her bum isn't as hairy :005:). She is not a hunter so we have no worries there (the cat that is) - but I wouldn't think of giving her raw either. I do want to make sure I do my best for them though.
I think you are right - it is important not to mess with puppy diets once weaning is established - unless it is necessary. So , I guess you were right here. I bet everyone may not have stuck by that like you did, don't you think? I am sure we are all trying to do our best - it can be very confusing, can't it.
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On an interesting note - and I'm not sure whats causing it, it may or may not be her diet ;) - Daisy seems to be immune to ticks this year (touch wood ;) ).
By that I mean that they still attach themselves to her but they die very soon after locking on. She hasn't had Frontline, or any other flea or tick treatment, since I cant remember when (probably 8 -12 months ago) but I do put garlic in her liver cake and she occassionaly has garlic and fenugreek tablets - when I remember to give them.
Just something I thought I'd share because I do think its her diet but others may not ;)
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I read somewhere that garlic is toxic to dogs - but someone else said it is fine on small amounts. So much conflicting advice - do you know? Incidentally I saw frontline advertised for the first time on TV tonight - you can now get it without prescription and it is much cheaper. Chemical flea repellants do worry me a bit.
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I think I worry about the kids too. I have a 7 year old and a three year old, who obviously share the same play places as Honey (she toilets in the garden also - not the kids) and i feel if there is any risk to them (especially with things like toxoplasmosis) I owe them to be cautiousl. I have a cat and have always been a bit paranoid about toxoplasmosis - but her toileting and eating habits are much more civilised than Honeys (and her bum isn't as hairy :005:). She is not a hunter so we have no worries there (the cat that is) - but I wouldn't think of giving her raw either. I do want to make sure I do my best for them though.
I think you are right - it is important not to mess with puppy diets once weaning is established - unless it is necessary. So , I guess you were right here. I bet everyone may not have stuck by that like you did, don't you think? I am sure we are all trying to do our best - it can be very confusing, can't it.
Well I know one of Milos litter mates "parents" didnt! And then they complained about the size of his poos and him having smelly breathe and that his coat wasnt as shiney as Milos!! ::) ::) My friend swapped from what her breeder had put her pup on because it was affecting her, she swapped to BARF and it suits my friends dog far more than what she was weaned on...so I guess its swings and roundabouts with the weaning!!!!?!??!?!
I'm not really sure I understand where you are coming from about the poo ph34r sorry!!! Isnt all poo, poo at the end of the day! If its not cleared up its pretty nasty!! I have discussed this with my midwife and she said that the dogs poo is of no worry to me at all, even with what they are fed......its cats that are the problem!! Just as well I dont have a cat then!!! :005:
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I read somewhere that garlic is toxic to dogs - but someone else said it is fine on small amounts. So much conflicting advice - do you know? Incidentally I saw frontline advertised for the first time on TV tonight - you can now get it without prescription and it is much cheaper. Chemical flea repellants do worry me a bit.
Garlic is fine in small amounts ;) and is known to be a natural flea/tick repellant. I'll find you a link ;)
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The main sources of toxoplasmosis are from raw meat and can be passed to humans that way. If the dog has eaten something that is infected by toxoplasmosis which has not been eradicated in cooking, it will remain live in the dog faeces - as will salmonella, listeria, e-coli, campylobacter and so on. Because dogs digest their food more quickly, as their digestive tract is shorter they may not necessarily suffer from infection (there is always a chance they will though). These and other parasites are excreted live by the dog and theoretically pose a risk of infection. Now some may argue that the risk is minimal but these are serious infections that in children, the elderly and immunologically compromised (people on chemo and so on) could be life threatening. Dogs are not the cleanest species on earth and pooh can get carried into the house and so on their paws, fur or chidlrens feet and so on. There is no data to say if this is not a real problem, but infections have been reported in dogs.
I know some people don't support this as being a risk - but it is always there and therefore needs to be considered. If cats are a risk, theoretically so are raw fed dogs.
I just know I am going to regret posting this - I have been trying not to cause an argument. By the way I am a nurse, which is maybe why I am so paranoid. Who knows?
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If you worm your dogs (and cats) regularly you shouldn't have to worry about toxoplasmosis....or tapeworm for that matter ;)
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My midwife did ask if I wormed my dogs regularly which I do!!! So thats obviously why she wasnt concerened about the risk of toxoplasmosis to me!! xxxx
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You do of corse if they eat in infected meat - the major source of infection. Unless of course you worm them everyday, More pregnant women get toxoplasmosis from undercooked meat than from cat faeces and any website on toxoplasmosis will confirm this. Raw meat is the primary source of infection for toxoplasmosis.
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Garlic is fine in small amounts ;) and is known to be a natural flea/tick repellant.
It's supposed to be a headlice repellant in humans too.
I have no worries with raw, none what so eve, I honestly mean that. But I have so much contact with so many dogs who are fed a raw diet and I can honestly say they thrive and have few health problems, and non relating to diet. My friend has 12 cockers all fed a raw diet, the oldest cocker is 17!! Its suited him no problmeo!!! But I understand why people may worry, if I did not have it infront of me on a daily basis then it might concern me, buit honestly it doesnt.
I think this is quite an important point. I don't know anyone personally who feeds Barf so have no-one to compare with /get advice from. I think I may be braver and give it a try if I did. (What I would really need is a weekly menu!)
As it is, we are tired of poos bordering on dia-whatsit so we're going to give Arden Grange a try!
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You do of corse if they eat in infected meat - the major source of infection. Unless of course you worm them everyday, More pregnant women get toxoplasmosis from undercooked meat than from cat faeces and any website on toxoplasmosis will confirm this. Raw meat is the primary source of infection for toxoplasmosis.
But isnt the point of wormer that it lasts for a set period, so for example drontol lasts for three months, so your dog would have 3 months protection from nasty wormy parasites!?!?!
I dont eat meat so theres no chance of me getting toxoplasmosis from undercooked meat through consumption!!
Thank you for the info! I am happy to go with the fact that my midwife is not concerned about the risk of me getting toxoplasmosis, but I appreciate you pointing out the other side!
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I wash my hands after feeding the dogs, the same as I do after cutting up raw meat that we are going to eat....
If anyone is that paranoid about germs they shouldn't have a dog (or cat), after all - they eat unmentionable things, and lick their bums :lol:
Lisa - the wormer isn't preventative, it treats them for worms whether they have them or not...
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Lisa - the wormer isn't preventative, it treats them for worms whether they have them or not...
Thanks Penel!! ;)
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You're welcome ;) :D
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If the dog has eaten something that is infected by toxoplasmosis which has not been eradicated in cooking, it will remain live in the dog faeces -
Kind of!!
If the animal ingests cysts from meat, then as they pass through the digestive system they change, so that when they are excreated they are NOT infective straight away. It takes at least 24hrs for the poop to become infective, which is why it is so important to pic up poop straight away. ;)
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Aside from the risk of transmission of toxoplasmosis - there is the risk of transmission of live pathogens that worming will certainly not eradicate (as mentioned before). It is a real risk!
Incidentally, even if the poop has been lifted striaght away the risk remains for tiny amounts to be left behind which are enough for these microscopic organisms to live. Provided you are sure there are no traces left at all - you will be fine.
I will concede that i may not be entirely right about transmission from dog faeces to human anyway in toxoplasmosis - the organism apparently does not complete its full life cycle in the dog - only in the cat. However humans and dogs can be infected from raw meat and there is evidence that some dogs have been seriously ill. Also the more exposure you have to raw meat the higher the chance of you becoming infected, no matter how scrupulous you are.
Look I don't want to get into an argument - just expressing my reasons why I feel I can't feed it. I hope I am not offending anyone.
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Yes cats are the only definitive host for toxoplasmosis. Therefore if humans are preparing raw meat for themselves anyway then why would Barf be a problem with regards to toxoplasmosis?
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Provided you are sure there are no traces left at all - you will be fine.
Well we should be okay round here!! As many COLers know my OH is obsessed with cleaning!!!! He likes everything spic and span ::) anyway as I have mentioned in a post before, he disinfects the garden ::) He has had dogs all his life and it is something he has always done, so with any luck we may be raw meat eaters round here (well the dogs not me I am a veggy!!!) but we are very clean ones!!!!!!
;) He doesnt disinfect becuase of BARF just to make it clear! Its just his family always have as they have owned a lot of animals in one space! So its like second nature to him!
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Look I don't want to get into an argument - just expressing my reasons why I feel I can't feed it. I hope I am not offending anyone.
you are actually offending me - you titled this "debate" and yet it seems to be just a thread for you to slag off the BARF diet / natural diet / raw diet, whatever you want to call it. You should have titled it "reasons not to feed BARF" if that is how you feel...
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I suppose it is because you are handling more raw meat - people found to be most likely to be contaminated are those who handle raw meat regularly, for example, butchers. Raw meat is the primary source of contamination - the more often you handle it the higher the risk - as well as the risk to the dog.
But we are not talking about the risk from salmonella, campylobacter, listeria e-coli and so on which is passed live in dog faeces. There is no real studies either way about this - but there are preliminary studies, one of which is decribed in the Canadian Veterinary journal. There were two groups of 10 dogs - one on commercial food;one on BARF. The prepared meal and the dogs stool was tested in each. 100% of the meals and stools in the commercial group were salmonella free. 80% of the barf meals were contaminated with salmonella and 30% of stool samples had shed salmonella. This is a genuine risk and obviously warrants caution and further investigation. Not only does it cite faeces as being a risk, but the dogs mouth, feeding bowl, the feeding area and presumably chew toys etc must also be considered a risk.
That is why I feel the combination of small children (which is my concern rather thamn myself), dogs and a BARF diet are a risk. No matter how scrupulous we are with our hygiene and no matter how quickly we clear up faeces - small children and dogs do not have the same knowledge. Surely this is not an unreasonable argument and one that is well founded. I have small children - there is doubt over the safety ofthe diet. Yes risks are there for everything, but we must minimalise the risks where possible.
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Look I don't want to get into an argument - just expressing my reasons why I feel I can't feed it. I hope I am not offending anyone.
you are actually offending me - you titled this "debate" and yet it seems to be just a thread for you to slag off the BARF diet / natural diet / raw diet, whatever you want to call it. You should have titled it "reasons not to feed BARF" if that is how you feel...
I must say I am disappointed with the turn this thread took. Kb - you started the thread by saying you were genuinely interested in Barf feeding, as I am and was hoping I could perhaps learn more about it. However, it seems you had really already made up your mind and just wanted to get your own point across.
I must be a terrible mother because I have 4 children and it never crossed my mind to worry about what they might catch from the dogs' poos! I do pick it up straight away (or as soon as I see it) but that is so they don't tred in it and walk it into the house. :005:
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There were two groups of 10 dogs - one on commercial food;one on BARF. The prepared meal and the dogs stool was tested in each. 100% of the meals and stools in the commercial group were salmonella free. 80% of the barf meals were contaminated with salmonella and 30% of stool samples had shed salmonella. This is a genuine risk and obviously warrants caution and further investigation. Not only does it cite faeces as being a risk, but the dogs mouth, feeding bowl, the feeding area and presumably chew toys etc must also be considered a risk.
Were the dogs kept isolated during these tests or did they go about their normal daily routine?
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just for everyones info - Campylobacter is found in fecal matter, non-chlorinated water, such as streams, ponds or puddles, food poisoning from food or from a human who has food poison, even a light case. This disease can also be transmitted to these areas by our common fly, flitting from one host to another. The bacteria is also found in raw or under cooked meat.....
so be careful if your dog drinks puddles and goes in streams ph34r ;) :005:
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I must say I am disappointed with the turn this thread took. Kb - you started the thread by saying you were genuinely interested in Barf feeding, as I am and was hoping I could perhaps learn more about it. However, it seems you had really already made up your mind and just wanted to get your own point across.
TBH I think this thread has been very informative, I have learnt things that I would never have learnt had this thread only been about the positives of raw feeding ;)
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so no one will be offended if I start a "debate" about feeding a commercial dry food ?
did you all know that dry food also frequently has salmonella in it, as do raw hide chews and pigs ears ?
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OK now I'm lost! What on earth is campylobacter? :huh: But more importantly, is it something I can ring in sick with tomorrow as I really need the day off?!
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so no one will be offended if I start a "debate" about feeding a commercial dry food ?
did you all know that dry food also frequently has salmonella in it, as do raw hide chews and pigs ears ?
Isn't that what you always do anyway? ;) Not being funny Penel, but theres no need to patrionise people, just because we don't share your views it doesn't mean we don't know anything about the pitfalls of feeding raw or commercial ::)
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Just trying to make the "debate" more fair Emma that's all... not being funny either...
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OK now I'm lost! What on earth is campylobacter? :huh: But more importantly, is it something I can ring in sick with tomorrow as I really need the day off?!
A type of bacterium that can cause illness in humans. ;)
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You are now offending me!
I think I have listened very reasonably to the points of views of others and am trying tp express my view point why I think I should not feed it. There was a general consensus at the beginning of this thread that we would try to keep the debate friendly and as far as I am aware i have tried to do that. You and I have already debated this on another thread and you became quite personal and offensive with me on it. I wanted the chance to hear what other people had to say, so that I could expand my knowledge and come to an understanding of what other people think.
In the threads I have read already people tend to become very defensive when criticisms are made. People who feed a BARF diet have expressed the reasons why they do it, most emphatically at times. Indeed it is their right to do so. I did not invite opinions only from those in favour or against. I have had replies questioning my opinions and I am trying to give a reasonable explanation for them.
I am not and have not been personal to you and i do not see the need for you to be so with me. I understand that many of you have good reason to be happy with the diet - I am expressing my concerns about the risk to my dog and my children. Perhaps if i did not have them my views would be different. It may surprise you to know that I care deeply about the welfare of both. I am not sorry that my views offend you - I thought that was what forums like these were for. Cross contamination is a genuine concern and I personally people are foolish to ignore it.
As regards the trial - there were certain prerequisites to the trial - they had to be 1 year old, they had to have been antibiotic free for 2 months, in good general condition (ie no other illnesses), and to have been fed an the required diet exclusively for 2months. I don't know that keeping the dogs in isolation was essential to the trial. The 100% salmonella free result for the commercial food was not something they were expecting. The tests were carried out by a lab specialising in the culturing of foodborne pathogens. The study concludes that some dogs fed this diet shed salmonella in their stools and it should be a factor in deciding whether to feed this diet.
I am not saying that it is the reason why people should not feed the diet - it is the reason I choose not to feed it and I made that decision before I saw this study. My knowledge of cross contamination as a nurse gave me the reason to consider it.
I genuinely am interested in hearing the other side of the coin and in many ways I wish the cross contamination risk wasn't a big deal for me as I might feel otherwise. I simply wanted to know what it is that makes people feed it and why they think it is beneficial. I am not being personal and I am not trying to tell anyone what to do. I am merely expressing an opinion. This should not offend anyone - I am not offended by your decision to feed it and welcome the fact that the whole debate has led me tothink about the content of my dog's diet, even if I will not be feeding raw. I have asked about several things during this thread with a view to doing this. Could I not also say that there are some who appear to have their minds as set against my arguments as they seem to think I am about theirs.
Rhona - noone is casting any doubt over anyone's ability as a mother and I never even suggested that. I feel that there is a risk to my children - I am allowed to feel that. I too am disappointed with the turn this thread has taken!
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I must say I am disappointed with the turn this thread took. Kb - you started the thread by saying you were genuinely interested in Barf feeding, as I am and was hoping I could perhaps learn more about it. However, it seems you had really already made up your mind and just wanted to get your own point across.
TBH I think this thread has been very informative, I have learnt things that I would never have learnt had this thread only been about the positives of raw feeding ;)
I have to agree.
I am always really interested to hear different opinions on BARF. I don't just always want to hear the positive aspects to it. :-\ BARF isn't for me or Bailey, just as it isn't for lots of other dogs and their owners. We have to respect everybody's individual choice for the way they feed their dogs.
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OK now I'm lost! What on earth is campylobacter? :huh: But more importantly, is it something I can ring in sick with tomorrow as I really need the day off?!
A type of bacterium that can cause illness in humans. ;)
Well that's my sicknote sorted then! ;)
But on a more serious note - what are the chances of actually catching any of these things mentioned in this debate? If we were to worry about everything we would never leave the house or own any pet!
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OK now I'm lost! What on earth is campylobacter? :huh: But more importantly, is it something I can ring in sick with tomorrow as I really need the day off?!
A type of bacterium that can cause illness in humans. ;)
Well that's my sicknote sorted then! ;)
But on a more serious note - what are the chances of actually catching any of these things mentioned in this debate? If we were to worry about everything we would never leave the house or own any pet!
Well i had it when i was 18, i didn't have a dog and i was (still am) a veggie, my point being you can catch these things from any number of places. Of course it is important to be careful, but i don't like Barf or dogs for that matter being seen as the only cause.
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Penel - I mention campylobacter as only one of the pathogens found in dog faeces. You are right that this can be picked up in other places - all the morereason to be cautious. Perhaps you would not be laughing if your dogs or someone close to you died from one of these diseases!
Instead of "laughing at"my well founded arguments, or starting to criticise other types of food, you could tell us why we should not be woried about therisk of infection. Incidentally as I already said the fact that the trial I quoted found commercial food to be 100% salmonella free was unexpected. But by allmeans give me the information on dry food - I would welcome it!
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The main sources of toxoplasmosis are from raw meat and can be passed to humans that way. If the dog has eaten something that is infected by toxoplasmosis which has not been eradicated in cooking, it will remain live in the dog faeces - as will salmonella, listeria, e-coli, campylobacter and so on. Because dogs digest their food more quickly, as their digestive tract is shorter they may not necessarily suffer from infection (there is always a chance they will though). These and other parasites are excreted live by the dog and theoretically pose a risk of infection. Now some may argue that the risk is minimal but these are serious infections that in children, the elderly and immunologically compromised (people on chemo and so on) could be life threatening. Dogs are not the cleanest species on earth and pooh can get carried into the house and so on their paws, fur or chidlrens feet and so on. There is no data to say if this is not a real problem, but infections have been reported in dogs.
I know some people don't support this as being a risk - but it is always there and therefore needs to be considered. If cats are a risk, theoretically so are raw fed dogs.
I just know I am going to regret posting this - I have been trying not to cause an argument. By the way I am a nurse, which is maybe why I am so paranoid. Who knows?
I'm also a nurse, qualified in general nursing and psychiatry, but I'm certainly not paranoid about raw feeding, I just don't feel the same way as you.
I have 3 children my youngest was about 4 when we got Penny and I have never had an issue with the kids being sick because of dog poop or my raw feeding methods. I am always very strict with handwashing, poop removing etc. At present I have 10 raw fed dogs. I believe that for me and my family the benefits of raw feeding far out weigh any of the negatives you have come forward with. I have now been raw feeding for almost 4 yrs.
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I am sure you are more than capable of researching it yourself kb ..... I've got to go to bed now !!!
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No one is blaming dogs alone for the spread of these diseases - I am simply saying it is a genuine risk which probably not going to bother those of us who are healthy - but it is a serious risk to those who are not - including young children. Not feeding my dog raw meat is something I see to be a reasonable precaution for me.
Bluegirl - tell us how the benefits for your family outweigh the risks and then I can understand. That is what I am trying to achieve.
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No one is blaming dogs alone for the spread of these diseases - I am simply saying it is a genuine risk which probably not going to bother those of us who are healthy - but it is a serious risk to those who are not - including young children. Not feeding my dog raw meat is something I see to be a reasonable precaution for me.
Bluegirl - tell us how the benefits for your family outweigh the risks and then I can understand. That is what I am trying to achieve.
This makes no sense, If you are thinking along these lines then surely the risk of having a dog in the first place is far greater than the increased risk of feeling barf.
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That sounds like a bit of a cop out to me Penel. It is all very well to give criticism to the arguments you do not like, but you won't put forward anything to support your critcisms. You see I have looked for the clinical evidence re the benefits - I have not found any yet - I thought you might be able to help! (nor have I found conclusive clinical evidence against, I must add).
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I am having difficulty in understanding why people cannot see the risk of feeding your dog raw meat when the dog then carries of therisk of getting a serious infection itself and also of shedding these live pathogens in their faeces. These pathogens are not normally passed in faeces but result from the dog having ingested them. We are told to handle meat in a certain way, ensure it is thoroughly cooked etc to eliminate the risk - that is why raw meat carries an element of risk. It is not the dog - most pathogens that live in dogs do not affect humans, but those causing food poisoning do.
This is an increased risk for children because they do not deal with these pathogens as effectively (we have all heard the stories about the nurseries and the e-coli scares), and also because they are much more likely to be in contact with dog faeces than adults or dogs mouths or toys or feeding dishes. Not feeding raw meat reduces the risk/ How many of us would actually consider feeding raw meat to children.
Look I think this is getting a bit silly also - I believe it to be a genuine risk. This is not just my opinion but the considered opinion of many vets and environmental health experts. We can argue until we are blue in the face - but there it is. It comes down on how big a risk you judge it to be. I judge it to be an unnecssary risk when I have 2 small children in the house. None of this takes into account the risk to the dog - which may be minimal, but still exists. Nobody can predict which meat or animal will be affected.
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I am having difficulty in understanding why people cannot see the risk of feeding your dog raw meat when the dog then carries of therisk of getting a serious infection itself and also of shedding these live pathogens in their faeces.
Dogs can and will pick these pathogens up from any number of places not just raw meat. So the risk is there whether you feed Barf or not.
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This is an increased risk for children because they do not deal with these pathogens as effectively (we have all heard the stories about the nurseries and the e-coli scares), and also because they are much more likely to be in contact with dog faeces than adults or dogs mouths or toys or feeding dishes. Not feeding raw meat reduces the risk/ How many of us would actually consider feeding raw meat to children.
How does not feeding raw meat reduce the risk?
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Nobody can predict which meat or animal will be affected.
Exactly, regardless of the feed being given.
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:shades: i've been watching this argument, we feed max raw meatand have two small children, we always pick up poo straight away, disinfect bowls floor etc, my children never get sick , i think they are probably more exposed to these infections when we are at the local park, not all dog owers clean up after theyre dogs, just the other day my little boy trod in another dogs poo and was covered in it, there is more risk in that. >:( >:(
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The benefit of raw feeding is for my dogs. I love my dogs and in the past have used commercial foods, but I always felt I could do better. I first started using herbs when my old dogs became ill and they were of great benefit, after loosing my old dog I decided enough was enough and I chose to feed raw in the belief that I could provide my dogs with much better nutrition than any commercial diet, I would provide a species specific diet that in the long run would help my dog to live a long and healthy life without putting them at risk from unneccessary suffering from a diet which could produce so many life threatening diseases. Cancer is now a big killer of dogs.( much like the introduction of refined sugars to our diet has increased cancers rates and other diseases in humans). In wild dogs which ate a natural raw diet these diseases were virtually unheard of and as wolves and dogs differed genetically by less than 1% I was compelled to try raw feeding.I am very happy with the results and my family have remained safe, although there are risks in everything I believe any threat they face is minimal. I should be interested if there is any evidence to show how many of these diseases have been picked up by raw feeders and their families, I would suggest by the amount of followers this type of feeding it is a very small risk.
You asked for my reasons and I have responded, I am happy to hear your opinions but just as I cannot alter your paranoia about these bugs you cannot change my views about raw feeding. I shall continue to believe it is the only choice for my dogs. I hope it has given you some insight into my choice to raw feed.
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I am having difficulty in understanding why people cannot see the risk of feeding your dog raw meat when the dog then carries of therisk of getting a serious infection itself and also of shedding these live pathogens in their faeces. These pathogens are not normally passed in faeces but result from the dog having ingested them. We are told to handle meat in a certain way, ensure it is thoroughly cooked etc to eliminate the risk - that is why raw meat carries an element of risk. It is not the dog - most pathogens that live in dogs do not affect humans, but those causing food poisoning do.
This is an increased risk for children because they do not deal with these pathogens as effectively (we have all heard the stories about the nurseries and the e-coli scares), and also because they are much more likely to be in contact with dog faeces than adults or dogs mouths or toys or feeding dishes. Not feeding raw meat reduces the risk/ How many of us would actually consider feeding raw meat to children.
Look I think this is getting a bit silly also - I believe it to be a genuine risk. This is not just my opinion but the considered opinion of many vets and environmental health experts. We can argue until we are blue in the face - but there it is. It comes down on how big a risk you judge it to be. I judge it to be an unnecssary risk when I have 2 small children in the house. None of this takes into account the risk to the dog - which may be minimal, but still exists. Nobody can predict which meat or animal will be affected.
i've been reading this thread with intererest, and i (as you know) would prefer to feed barf to jarv and am heading that way - not only because at least i'd know what he has in his food, but also ethically i'm not convinced that the large dog food companies have our best friends interests at heart - the testing dog food on dogs has been done before on here so i'm not going to start that.
kb, you've researched this thoroughly and i understand the risks you speak of....but i'm not convinced that the 'risk' transfers directly into cases of these diseases occuring in humans...is there documented proof of barf fed dogs transferring disease onto humans? and if so a percentage would be helpful to measure the risk? i would think more of a risk would be a dog eating a rotting carcass on a walk, or discarded infected 'human' food, or fox poo, or a mexy rabbit, or another dogs poo etc etc....
and isn't the risk of disease everywhere you turn these days?? it's probably more likely to get salmonella from your local take out house than something from your dog, or mrsa from your local hospital....
what really is in the commercial dog food? (apart from burns or arden grange or autarky which seem to be 'ethically' good and use decent food products...) we all know that there are additives in foods (such as bakers), that can affect your dogs behaviour - it's been mentioned here before many times, and i know that some commercial treats can send jarvis hyper - i don't want to risk that...i would rather go back to basics and raw, on balance, is my preference.
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OK now I'm lost! What on earth is campylobacter? :huh: But more importantly, is it something I can ring in sick with tomorrow as I really need the day off?!
A type of bacterium that can cause illness in humans. ;)
Well that's my sicknote sorted then! ;)
But on a more serious note - what are the chances of actually catching any of these things mentioned in this debate? If we were to worry about everything we would never leave the house or own any pet!
I got Disney's poo sample results back on Friday and he has campylobacter. He is fed on Arden Grange and I can't even blame the chicken wings as he won't eat them :005: :005:
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I got Disney's poo sample results back on Friday and he has campylobacter. He is fed on Arden Grange and I can't even blame the chicken wings as he won't eat them :005: :005:
And Dill's fed raw and his poop (tested 3 weeks ago) was clear of all known bugs, parasites and nasties ;) ;)
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I got Disney's poo sample results back on Friday and he has campylobacter. He is fed on Arden Grange and I can't even blame the chicken wings as he won't eat them :005: :005:
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OK. We are in the process of weaning our dogs off Bakers (don't say a word! :D ) onto Arden Grange. Perhaps I shouldn't!
Gill - did your vet tell you that there was a danger of humans catching campylobacter from Disney's poo and if so how much of a chance? And what happens if you do get it? What effects does it have on people?
Edited to say: Oops. Something went wrong with my quote bit then!
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Just a quick question if people decide not to feed a dried kibble or a wet complete food in favour of feeding just meat why does the meat have to be raw? Why can't it be cooked meat? I've probably missed the answer to this on one of the many threads about Barf, but I just wondered, also why, if a raw diet is soo good for the dogs and peeps are claiming that thats what happened in the wild etc etc do you have to supplement the diet with oils and vitamins etc? I am genuinely interested in the reply to this, so please don't shout me down ;) :D
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Incidentally as I already said the fact that the trial I quoted found commercial food to be 100% salmonella free was unexpected. But by allmeans give me the information on dry food - I would welcome it!
I've asked that question before of Barfers and got the response that the trials are run by the commercial dog food manufacturers, so therefore its not a balanced view, I don't think you will ever get a balanced view of for and against Barfing, it seems a subject that people are very defensive over for some reason ::)
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I think I read on another thread that the meat has to be raw because that is how the dogs would have eaten it in the wild. Cooking it kind of defeats the object!
So on a similar note: would dogs really eat vegetables and pasta in the wild?
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I think I read on another thread that the meat has to be raw because that is how the dogs would have eaten it in the wild. Cooking it kind of defeats the object!
So on a similar note: would dogs really eat vegetables and pasta in the wild?
Thanks Rhona :D
Exactly, and would they have supplements added, nope I doubt it ;)
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Morning everyone !
I am slightly reluctant to reply in fear of being accused patronising - honestly really truly I am trying not to be - I really am trying to explain things to you in the simplest way possible - if you find that patronising then I apologise in advance. :D
Our homeopathic vet has told me that at least 60% of dogs will test positive for Campylobacter regardless of what they are fed. As I mentioned earlier Campy is found in most unchlorinated water - so if your dog goes in or drinks puddles, streams, lakes, bogs, it is likely that it will carry Campy. Most dogs are healthy enough to withstand this - but if your dog is slightly under the weather, then it could well get poorly from Campy.
The reason for leaving meat raw, is that as soon as you "process" (cook) it, the enzymes change completely, and it becomes much harder for a dog to digest. Dogs have not evolved to eat cooked meat.
Look at your dogs' teeth - they are all sharp and pointy, they have no molars. We have molars for grinding and breaking down veg and carbs before we swallow. Dogs do not. They are not designed to eat grains - be that wheat, pasta, corn, oats. A wild dog would not eat grains - unless it was the weeniest bit of grain found in its preys tummy - albeit that most rabbits tummies are probably full of green stuff (not grain)....
The commercial pet food industry is a multi billion pound industry - heavily featuring cheap cereals as the basis for most pet foods.....
If you really do feed a true raw diet, you should not have to supplement. My dogs will graze on herbs and grasses, especially ones that grow beside rivers for some reason.... Omega oils would come from things like eyes and brains, which most people don't want to feed. Fibre would come from fur and feathers - again most people don't want to feed, so they add veg and hope it will replace those components of the diet.
If raw feeding is so awful for dogs and their humans, how come there aren't thousands of us becoming ill ? I know loads and loads of people that feed raw - and I have only heard of one person getting salmonella - because he stupidly put a chicken wing in his mouth raw as a joke... ::)
I do find it very frustrating that people can spend so much time on researching and critisizing the negative points of a diet they never intend to feed, what is the point - why can't you accept that we who feed raw are happy with it - we are defensive because you are accusing us of doing something which puts us and our dogs at risk.
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Thank you Penel for explaining it so well :D and no you weren't patrionising this time ;)
I think the whole Barf V Complete kibble/wet food discussion/debate ends up offending everyone, as Barfers feel got at and peeps who feed complete are made to feel that we aren't doing the best for our dogs, by not going back to nature ;) I don't think any of it is intended to offend anyone, but in the process of each trying to justify their reasons for their way of feeding thats what happens sadly :huh:
At the end of the day, I am very happy feeding Arden Grange to my girl, it suits her, shes extremely healthy, I don't buy into the whole Barf thing, but fair play to you if you think thats whats best for your dog(s), but I feel I am doing the best for my dog too :D
It is a shame that there isn't any impartial research for us to make an informed decision from though ;)
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Well put, Penel.
Bella's been on a raw diet for about 8 months now. I handle her raw meat the way I do raw meat for myself. I also buy it from the same source, my local butcher. I wash all utensils that have been used to prepare it in hot soapy water the same as I do when I'm preparing a chicken for myself. I wash my hands after putting her breakfast out, if she's dragged a bone onto the floor I mop the floor, her bowl gets washed up after each meal. So to me I can't see where the extra risk comes in, really.
I personally feel that a raw diet has really helped Bella's diet. She was a dog who, in the 7 months we fed her on good quality kibble (either Burns or Arden Grange), had at least 5 bouts of ear infections, 3 eye infections, was almost diagnosed with dry eye, had blocked anal glands all the time and generally didn't seem to be able to fight off infections very well (she had a cough which lasted nearly 8 weeks despite 4 lots of antibiotics of varying kinds - in the end it took a week's rest in the country to sort that one out!).
In the 8 months she's been on a raw diet, she has not had a single ear or eye infection or any other kind of infection (her 3 visits to the vets have been for compllications with her stitches coming undone after a spay, and then for a claw she'd ripped out). IMO that is clear evidence that the raw diet has improved her health.
As Penel has said, alot of this thread seems to be about making out that people who choose to feed raw are being irresponsible in some way, putting their families at risk from horrible diseases and just being faddy about the whole thing. I decided to feed Bella raw after doing lots of research into the risks and benefits and decided that I'd rather handle a bit more raw meat than I do normally and potentially have a much healthier dog. Which is exactly what has happened. I personally think it's up to each owner what they choose to feed, but having said that, I'd have no qualms in recommending a raw diet - not because I think kibble is the root of all evil, but because my experience of a raw diet has been very positive and my experience of kibble was not.
I find it frustrating that whenever these debates come up, it always seems to be about raw feeders having to defend their actions, and if a raw feeder says anything against kibble they're seen as preaching, but kibble feeders saying things against raw feeding aren't - doesn't seem all that balanced to me. :shades:
Maybe to balance things out a bit, now that some of us raw feeders have said what benefits we think the diet has for our dogs, some kibble feeders could put forward the benefits they've seen in feeding their dogs kibble? I'm not saying that to spark a war, I just think it would be interesting to have a positive view from the other side of the fence rather than it all being about the "downsides" of a raw diet. ;)
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It is a shame that there isn't any impartial research for us to make an informed decision from though
I agree. Unfortunately that is the because of the multi billion pound / dollar pet food industry.... however I am sure you have noticed several pet foods trying to make their foods look more "natural", so they are aware of the sway towards more natural feeding. For example one of the Hills foods now has a picture of a raw chicken breast on the front. I recently worked on a Pedigree labelling job, and part of the photo was raw lamb chops. lambs kidneys, and some chicken breast.... (I got to take them home for the dogs afterwards :D !)
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Thanks Penel that explains a lot. :blink:
Having checked the ingredients on my dogs'dry food it does contain rice and maize, along with other things, so I suppose that is the same as Barfers adding veg. to their dogs' diets.
You see - that is how I was hoping this thread would go. A positive debate where people from both sides explain why they feel their way is best for their dogs, rather than a negative one with both sides putting down the opposition! ;)
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Maybe to balance things out a bit, now that some of us raw feeders have said what benefits we think the diet has for our dogs, some kibble feeders could put forward the benefits they've seen in feeding their dogs kibble? I'm not saying that to spark a war, I just think it would be interesting to have a positive view from the other side of the fence rather than it all being about the "downsides" of a raw diet. ;)
Ok, Indie is fed AG but that hasn't always been the case, as she used to be a very faddy eater ::) She has been through most of the complete dry foods, she was even on Bakers for a while out of complete desperation by myself to get her to eat ph34r Anyway, in the time we have Indie shes been extremely healthy, she has been the vets a handfull of times in her three years of life, shes had a couple of ear infections and she had pyoderma once. Her coat is very shiney as are her eyes, she doesn't have dandruff and her tummy is never upset (unless she eats chicken, chicken does not agree with her) her stools are never sloppy, always small and well formed :005: She has no allergies, is not overweight or underweight, her breath is not pongie (although it was when she was on Bakers) but she does fart now and again :005:
I have to say I would certainly recommed AG to anyone, it has been a real godsend to us, Indie loves it and shes obviously thriving on it, the only time I would change to something else would be if the product changed in any way, or if Indie stopped eating it, I don't mess with her diet too much as I worry incase she goes back to being Mrs Fussy Drawes :005: She gets the AG and raw vegetables, with a tin of tuna/pilchards a couple of times a week ;) I am very happy with her on it!
I am interested to hear about Bellas lack of ear problems since shes been on raw though :D
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Emma - thank you for providing me with the most facinating topic to consider while walking to pick Molo up from kennels this morning; I had never considered the possibility that the selective breeding of dogs may also have altered their digestive capacity and give them the ability to tolerate manufactured foods...... ;)
Rachel, I didn't start the topic ;) and i'm not sure what you mean, I am bit slow this morning, are you being funny with me?
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Emma - my pups are fed on Bakers as it is what they were weaned on. We asked the vet what he thought of it when we took them for their injections and he said it was as good as any other. However. in the last week or so their poos have turned to mush, bordering on dia-whatsit (sp)! They also stink - the poos, not the dogs! They don't have a problem with bad breath, but Reuben is beginning to fart rather more often than my nose can take!
So we are weaning them onto Arden Grange in the hope that this will improve things. We were advised to do it slowly over 4 days. But to be honest, at the rate their food goes in one end and out the other so quickly, I can't see that it would make much difference if we just switched the food totally straight away.
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As below :005:
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Edited: due to misunderstanding ;)
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The reason for leaving meat raw, is that as soon as you "process" (cook) it, the enzymes change completely, and it becomes much harder for a dog to digest. Dogs have not evolved to eat cooked meat.
Look at your dogs' teeth - they are all sharp and pointy, they have no molars. We have molars for grinding and breaking down veg and carbs before we swallow. Dogs do not. They are not designed to eat grains - be that wheat, pasta, corn, oats. A wild dog would not eat grains - unless it was the weeniest bit of grain found in its preys tummy - albeit that most rabbits tummies are probably full of green stuff (not grain)....
The commercial pet food industry is a multi billion pound industry - heavily featuring cheap cereals as the basis for most pet foods.....
If you really do feed a true raw diet, you should not have to supplement. My dogs will graze on herbs and grasses, especially ones that grow beside rivers for some reason.... Omega oils would come from things like eyes and brains, which most people don't want to feed. Fibre would come from fur and feathers - again most people don't want to feed, so they add veg and hope it will replace those components of the diet.
I do find it very frustrating that people can spend so much time on researching and critisizing the negative points of a diet they never intend to feed, what is the point - why can't you accept that we who feed raw are happy with it - we are defensive because you are accusing us of doing something which puts us and our dogs at risk.
really well explained, thank you! :D
we converted max to raw food from bakers/pedigree (he came to us on pedigree) 6 months ago after max kept getting infections and have never looked back, max hasnt once been to the vet since, he's really heathy, i don't think by feeding barf you are inceasing the risk of bugs if you are careful to keep feeding areas clean.
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The point of researching this is in the hope that I may find the best way of feeding my dog - even if it does not include raw meat, but substitutin it with cooked meat.
You can argue all youlike but research does show that feeding raw meat increases the risk of nasty bugs to and the transmission of those to humans. This is not opinion it is fact. Increased exposure to pathogens by its very nature increases the risk of infection. I f you could microscopically examine how far your dog can spread these live pathogens from its mouth, its fur, its pooh you would probably be surprised. Why take any precautions with raw meat at all if there is no risk.
No dry kibble is not the best diet for my dog in my opinion - hence the interest in feeding alternatives. As for the wild dog debate- well again people' sopinions are going to be divided. A wild dog is probably not the best model on which to build the optimum diet.
Dogd is the wild are scavengers primarily. They will eat what they can and certainly do eat grass, herbs and naturally occurring foods they can. Yes they sre carnivores but not true carnivores like the cat. Thier digestive system shows this - their teeth are different also than dogs. Dogs digestive systems contain complex processes for breaking down carbohydrate as well as meat. They are born not to eat meat alone. In the wild wolves are not eating prime cuts of cattle, lamb, chicken and so on. They are more likely to eat rats, rabbits and so on, which porvides only a small amount of raw meat, as well as fur etc. Wolf poo is described as being furry to look at. Wolves also suffer severe parasitic infections which often kill them and on being brought in for treatment to rescue centres and so on are often found to be extremely malnourished - because of the poor nature oftheir diet.
Again I am not arguing against BARF - merely presenting some facts for consideration.
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Well I can tell you from experience (not reading from a book or the internet) that when my dogs eat whole fresh rabbits, their poo does not contain fur the next day....
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You can argue all youlike but research does show that feeding raw meat increases the risk of nasty bugs to and the transmission of those to humans. This is not opinion it is fact. Increased exposure to pathogens by its very nature increases the risk of infection. I f you could microscopically examine how far your dog can spread these live pathogens from its mouth, its fur, its pooh you would probably be surprised. Why take any precautions with raw meat at all if there is no risk.
There are lots of other risks in the world though - I don't think anyone is saying that raw meat never carries germs - just that the risk is lower than many other risks we take every day....... ;)
Since starting to feed Molo raw, I have been amazed at the number of people I meet who do feed their dogs partially, or fully raw diets. This may be because I live in a rural area with lots of working dogs, (and millions of rabbits) - but it does mean that no matter what I feed Molo at home, me and my family will always be exposed to some level of risk from other dogs/foxes/badgers who have walked or soiled an area of ground that we sit or stand on :-\
To me, the risk of infection is low enough for me to decide that raw food is something that I do want to feed Molo.
I respect that others don't want to take that level of risk - and understand that my judgement in relation to the care of my daughter may be questioned as a result :-\
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You can argue all youlike but research does show that feeding raw meat increases the risk of nasty bugs to and the transmission of those to humans. This is not opinion it is fact. Increased exposure to pathogens by its very nature increases the risk of infection. I f you could microscopically examine how far your dog can spread these live pathogens from its mouth, its fur, its pooh you would probably be surprised. Why take any precautions with raw meat at all if there is no risk.
But if those of us who are feeding raw take the same precautions we do from preparing raw food for ourselves, and clear up poop quickly, I can't see there is a vastly increased risk myself. My dog eats all kinds of rubbish out on her walks, if she came upon a half rotten sheep she would probably eat it (my mum's border collie up in cumbria does this regularly, also dead salmon washed up by the river, leftovers of rabbits killed by the local cat, you name it!), she eats the faeces of other animals at times, she eats leftover KFC meals that have been in a bin for a weekend and dragged around by foxes - I just think if you go down the route of what bugs dogs are likely to pass on, there must be a myriad of them regardless of what you feed them.
Out of interest have any raw feeders on here picked up nasty bugs from their dogs? I know I certainly haven't. ;)
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Yes they sre carnivores but not true carnivores like the cat. Thier digestive system shows this - their teeth are different also than dogs. Dogs digestive systems contain complex processes for breaking down carbohydrate as well as meat. They are born not to eat meat alone. In the wild wolves are not eating prime cuts of cattle, lamb, chicken and so on. They are more likely to eat rats, rabbits and so on, which porvides only a small amount of raw meat, as well as fur etc.
How far do a wolve's teeth differ from a domestic dog's? Domestic dogs still have the teeth or a carnivore.
Re. wild wolves not eating prime cuts of cattle etc and only eating a small amount of raw meat, how much meat do you think we are feeding?
Bella gets around 180g of food a day (twice what she would have if she were on kibble, the extra weight coming from the water in the meat). This 180g contains probably around 90-100g of pure meat, the rest is bone, pulped veg, offal and a bit of bran for roughage, so it's not like she's being presented with a prime steak for breakfast. ;)
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That is fine - each to their own. I just don't think the risk is confined to the meat and the dog faeces. Dogs do not know what precautions to take - do you disinfect their mouths, their ears, their paws, their bowls, the floor that they came in and sat on after they did a pooh and didn't clean their bums? Oh look I am not going to go on about this - the department of health is always running campaigns because people don't fully asppreciate the risk of bugs which cause food poisoning. With dogs and chidren (the cause of my concern, hygiene will never be that good - you may feed barf for life and never have a problem - you may feed it once and the dog or child or elderly person could get salmonella and die. Any risk of these potentially life threatening bugs is too great. When I handle raw meat I take all the precautions i reasonably can to eliminate the risk - dogs and children cannot!
Edited to add:
I have not examined the pooh of many wolves but have read about those who do research with wild wolves who describe this - I will try to find the link! Are you debating this Penel - are even the experts wrong?
I think a wolf's mouth is different from that of the domestic dog. I will try and find the link.
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That is fine - each to their own. I just don't think the risk is confined to the meat and the dog faeces. Dogs do not know what precautions to take - do you disinfect their mouths, their ears, their paws, their bowls, the floor that they came in and sat on after they did a pooh and didn't clean their bums? Oh look I am not going to go on about this - the department of health is always running campaigns because people don't fully asppreciate the risk of bugs which cause food poisoning. With dogs and chidren (the cause of my concern, hygiene will never be that good - you may feed barf for life and never have a problem - you may feed it once and the dog or child or elderly person could get salmonella and die. Any risk of these potentially life threatening bugs is too great. When I handle raw meat I take all the precautions i reasonably can to eliminate the risk - dogs and children cannot!
Sure - but you can just as easily get salmonella from eating a dodgy egg sandwich in a cafe (as I once did!) - that wouldn't make me never ever eat another sandwich in a cafe again though. I just think those of us who do feed raw will have put alot of thought into the potential risks and are prepared to live with that and gain the benefits of a dog which is much healthier (certainly in my case, anyway). I think we're getting too focussed on the fact that potentially someone could pick up a bug from the raw meat their dog is eating. If we want to talk about bug-ridden animals' mouths, should we start disinfecting our cats' mouths as well (incidentally mine are fed on kibble) which are notoriously full of nasties (hence the fact that when my cat got bitten by another cat last week it took only 3 hours for a huge cyst to develop). Going off topic I know but just to illustrate the point, you could worry forever about potentially picking up a bug from somewhere, there are risks all around us!
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Kb, after this debate I'm struggling to understand why you even have a dog!
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Bluegirl - now you are being unreasonable again!
I have a dog because I love animals - presumably like you. I also have a cat. I am concerned like you are that in owning a dog I do my best for it. I wonder if you are suggesting that everyone who disagrees with feeding raw should be excluded from owning a dog. I happen to think that there are aspects of the barf diet which give rise to concern. There also aspects of the commercial food diet which give rise to concern,. I am tempted to home cook but I also have concerns about feeding a diet too rich in human food to dogs, because of the varying types of carbohydrate, salt content and so on. I want to do what is right by my dog, but in doing so I want to keep her safe. I don't have enough evidence to prove that barf is safe. That does not mean I should notown a dog. I am being sensible in weighing up the argument as I am sure you did - but we have reached different conclusions.
Do not however question my ability to own a dog - that is very unfair. DRiving a car has risks we all knwo that when we drive one. We drive cautiously and don't add additional risks to the process. That does not mean we should not own a car. Those who drive in a way which does pose risk may say we should not.
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Claire - as for the cats I presume when you got your cat you knew that abscesses often develop with cat bites. I have been bitten by a cat andhad this experience personally. It does not stop me from owning a cat - but I eliminate the risk of her biting me or my children ,by not handplaying with her anymore - a reasonable and sensible precaution.
What i would really like is someone to tell me how I can develop a diet which is good for my dog while accepting that I don't feed raw. I don't want to feed pasta or rice or any unrefined carbohydrate. Can anyone help?
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Kb, after this debate I'm struggling to understand why you even have a dog!
D'ya know what Karen? I was just thinking the very same thing myself ;)
KB - if you are that paranoid about germs and nasties - why have a dog??
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Any risk of these potentially life threatening bugs is too great.
Surely if we applied this theory to our whole lives - any risk is too great - then we'd all live in little plastic bubbles though :huh:
I sat next to a child with chicken pox in the airport yesterday - I might get shingles, give it to my daughter and she might develop fatal complications..... ;)
My daughter and I might get hit by an irresponsible driver walking home from school......
Molo might get bitten by an out of control dog when we are out walking.......
Life is full of risk.......I wonder why this one creates more debate than greater risks - from which people die every day :huh:
I have searched the internet and been unable to find any cooked meat diets that exclude carbohydrate; either manufactured or home-made recipes - this suggests to me that the carbohydrate forms an essential part of the diet; unless all the pet food manufacturers have got it wrong :huh:
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I wonder if you are suggesting that everyone who disagrees with feeding raw should be excluded from owning a dog.
Now you are being a little irrational and even more obtuse! That is not what Karen is suggesting at all as well you know! She is simply wondering - like quite a few of us - how someone so hung up on germs, parasites and nasties would allow a dog into contact with them! Regardless of what you feed there is a risk of infection - its a choice we all make!!!
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You see you just don't get it - I am not paranoid. It is a reasonable and very sensible argument. The fact that no one else wants to take it seriously is th eproblem. You see why can anybody understand that feeding raw meat increases the risk - end of story. Yes the risks are there in every day life and we are equipped to deal with that - dogs and small children are not. When my dog eats and empties her dish my child could easily go over and handle taht dish, leading to contamination from raw meat - if the meat is cooked - no risk. Most of the pathogens that ordinarily live in my dog will not cause my children harm - but those which cause food poisoning in humans - which you get from raw meat, raw eggs, unpasteurised goats milk and so on, are extremely harmful. They are excreted live in dog faeces - they once again do not pose a risk to most healthy adults but they do to children and thise who are immunosuppressed and the elderly!
Why is this so hard to understand? Would you let your children handle raw meat? Would you let them eat raw meat? Why not? Could this be the risk of food poisoning? Can you be sure that you have removed 100% of pooh from the garden, are you sure your dogs ears have not been in the meat etc, etc. It is not the dog that is the issue - it is the raw meat. Please do not question my ownership of dogs - I feel feeding a dog a raw diet is irresponsible but I am not being rude and questioning your ability or suitability to own a dog.
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Claire - as for the cats I presume when you got your cat you knew that abscesses often develop with cat bites. I have been bitten by a cat andhad this experience personally. It does not stop me from owning a cat - but I eliminate the risk of her biting me or my children ,by not handplaying with her anymore - a reasonable and sensible precaution.
My point was that there are risks in just about everything in life, it's just how life is. My OH got bitten by a staffie the other week when out walking our dog - doesn't mean we'll never ever take her out for a walk in case one of us gets bitten by another dog.
I don't think anyone's questioning your ability to look after a dog, just your attitude that there is danger in absolutely everything - you take risks in just about everything you do, I could get RSI from typing this and dodgy eyes from looking at the screen but I'm still going to do it! :lol: ;)
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are you sure your dogs ears have not been in the meat
Yes cos she eats out of one of my home-made spaniel bowls :lol: :lol:
(and if she has a bone her ears are tied back ;))
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I feel feeding a dog a raw diet is irresponsible
So why start a 'debate' when you already think you know the answers? This was never an attempt to 'understand' merely an opportunity to impart your 'facts'
I refuse to carry on with this any longer - you have made up your mind I suggest we all simply agree to differ and hope that a mod closes the thread
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That is okay. If not wanting to deliberately feed your dog something which is contaminated with something which could potentially seriously harm your dog or family is being paranoid, obtuse, irrational - so be it. Go read the evidence or talk to some of the people who have been affected by this and ask them. there is an increase in people regretting feeding their dogs raw because of this. Like the rest of you I worm and flea treat my dog to reduce risk - not feeding raw is another reasonable precaution. Accept itor not, but do not criticise me. I don't eat raw - I woudn't feed anybody else raw food. It is not pie in the sky nonsense - it is reality!
Yes there are risks in life - your husband did not deliberately look to be bitten by a staffie did he?
Rachel I would have thought you would have known that the risk of you catching shingles froma child with chicken pox and therefore passing it on to your daughter is practically non-existant. Shingles normally results from the virus lying dormant in the immune system ater having previously been infected by chickenpox - it is reactivated when the immune system is under pressure - at times of other illness or stress. It is very rare indeed to catch shingles from chicken pox and vice verse. Unfortunately transmission of pathogens causing food poisoning is much easier.
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I feel feeding a dog a raw diet is irresponsible
So why start a 'debate' when you already think you know the answers? This was never an attempt to 'understand' merely an opportunity to impart your 'facts'
I refuse to carry on with this any longer - you have made up your mind I suggest we all simply agree to differ and hope that a mod closes the thread
Well said, Sarah.
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Well before they do that - kb I have 4 children and would happily let all of them handle raw meat. They have always enjoyed helping me cook and as long as they wash their hands before and after I can't see that it will do them any harm!
Edited to say: I know that the chicken pox virus lies dormant in your body, but have always believed that it could develop into shingles if you came into contact with someone who has chicken pox. I think Rachel was just using this as an example of things to worry about (like being hit by a bus). OK. The risk from this may be practically non existant, but what we all want to know is what are the actual chances of catching one of the things you have mentioned from a dog fed raw meat?
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When my dog eats and empties her dish my child could easily go over and handle taht dish,
:o :o :o
I consider this irresponsible - if a child is not supervised to ensure that they leave a dogs dish alone (whether empty or full), then they are at far greater risk of more than just contamination from food (raw or cooked) :-\
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talk to some of the people who have been affected by this and ask them. there is an increase in people regretting feeding their dogs raw because of this.
Where are all these people who have been infected through feeding their dogs raw meat? None of them seem to be on here and there don't seem to be any on the Yahoo britbarf email list either. This isn't getting anywhere anymore, you've made up your mind so don't start accusing raw feeders of being irresponsible. ::)
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You see you just don't get it - I am not paranoid. It is a reasonable and very sensible argument. The fact that no one else wants to take it seriously is th eproblem. You see why can anybody understand that feeding raw meat increases the risk - end of story.
But I think there must be a degree of paranoia here, Hon. This "debate" has gone on for days now, we are on page 8.(And 5 new posts added as I typed!!!) An honest "debate" would lead you to just state your case and see how everyone else feels by their responses. No-one needs to "batter" us with endless facts!
I am beginning to lose the will to live to be honest. ;)
What I make of this is that kb doesn't agree with BARF. Some other COLers agree with her to a point, but don't necessarily feel as passionate about it. Some other COLers feel very passionately abot BARF.
I don't see that anyone is going to succeed in battering any other into changing their views. Those of us who are still a bit undecided, well, we will decide one way or another, but I don't think it will be because we have heard of the infection risk 100 times (believe me, I'm intelligent enough to "get it" after reading it just the once!).
BTW one advantage of dry kibble that I can see is that if we go out for a long day, I can just take the bag of kibble for Buddy's feed in my bag. Whereas if I feed BARF I would have to take ice packs too. Not a big deal, but it crossed my mind on our walk this morning. Also, Ben can feed Buddy sometimes without us having to be around (if we are ever lucky enough to get a lie in!). BUT he (Buddy) stinks, so I am thinking of doing partial BARF with a view to progressing if/when I get the hang of it.
I'm done with this "debate" now.
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i may be really wrong but doesnt being exposed to tiny tiny amount of bacteria actually make your immune system better?, i don't think feeding raw food makes us irresposilble at all, my kids could chatch bugs from anywhere, mainly school but i doesnt stop me sending them there.
added: not saying my house is dirty!!
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Claire you are so smug aren't you? I would bet that you think that e-coli which is found in faeces is also eradictaed fater you use the toilet- but the most fundamental studies would show that no matter how well you wash your hands after using the toilet, e-coli will be found on your sleeves the taps and so on , and so on.
I have wasted so much time in this debate, because I am intelligent person who likes to know both sides of the argument. I am explaining my opinions and not being personal or offensive to anyone. I have asked for advice on how to establish a more suitable diet without feeding raw meat - but you have all chosen to criticise me instead. You are all being extremely personal and opinionated
and no one has even attempted to tell me why this is a good diet.
Can I not be interested in your opinion whilst expressing my own. Can you not accept another view point without feeling threatened by it. Why have all those who are pro-barf entered the debate when they are so inflexible also. This thread started quite friendly - I would like to know how to feed veg and carbs to my dog and what way to give them. I would just rather cook my meat. The only reason this debate is going on is because none of you will accept my reasons for doing this and move on and offer some advice. I am merely responding to the personal criticisms being made- woudn't you? But I knew this would haooen anyway. Those who were probarf and reasonable have not entered this slanging match - perhaps they acne answer my questions about improving my dog's diet.
It seems unfortunate that people who fundamentally agree on the problems with commercial feeding cannot accomodate each others beliefs to help each other. I don't see why I am the one who is being criticised!
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Claire you are so smug aren't you?
How is being willing to risk feeding my dog raw meat smug, exactly?
Anyway, I'm bowing out of this now, it's getting petty and insulting.
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Claire you are so smug aren't you?
.........................................and not being personal or offensive to anyone.
What contradictions in one post.
Honestly, I don't see any evidence that you are ASKING for information and actually want to receive/accept it.
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Incidentally, kb, the title of this thread is "barf debate" - if you didn't want that and actually wanted to know about feeding your dog a home-cooked diet (which I can see nothing wrong with whatsoever), why not call it "home-cooked diet" instead?
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Do you know what - I give up!
I am obviously the bad guy here.
Rachel, you are very lucky if you can supervise your child long enough to ensure he or she never touches a feeding bowl - I wish my children were so well behaved!
If you don' twant to hear the debate about infection - stop posting about it. You are prolongong it not me because you refuse to accept my point of view. Believe me there those out there if you look for them who have been affected, there are those who have not. Barf websites tend not to tell the bad stories.
There are plenty who do not feed barf who feel strongly and have tried to debate in the past - but they are always shot down and humiliated.
I was just wondering Rachel - I could have sworn I saw a thread where you were anti-barf sometime ago. I may be wrong excuse me if I am. If i am not what changed your mind
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you called it a ' debate' but just used it as an opprtunity to tell all the raw feeders how irresponsible we are... >:(
if you really are that worried about catching a bug from raw meat then barf is not for you and is never going to be.
you called it BARF Debate and thats what you got.
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Claire you are so smug aren't you? .
I am ......not being personal or offensive to anyone.
Strikes me thats exactly what you're doing
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If you don' twant to hear the debate about infection - stop posting about it. You are prolongong it not me because you refuse to accept my point of view.
But that's just it kb!
If people won't "accept" your point of view (by that I can only assume you mean "agree") why do you keep posting.
I feel a bit bullied to be honest. I refuse to feel that way, so I will not be reading any more of this farcical debate.
Perhaps it is time this thread was locked, as I don't see any possibility of any good coming from it!
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Do you know what - I give up!
Oh good, I am glad
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Why have all those who are pro-barf entered the debate when they are so inflexible ............I don't see why I am the one who is being criticised!
I'm pro-BARF, and far from being inflexible, I have acknowledged (several times) that I understand why you may feel the way you do, and even accepted that you may consider me an irresponsible parent for putting my daughter at a risk you consider unacceptable.
I have also asked how you manage the risk to your family outside the home........ :huh:
You have criticised me, by saying that BARF feeding is irresponsible........so contrary to your post, you are not the only one who has been criticised :-\
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Thanks for all the really helpful advice. Even if I had been looking for evidence to change my mind, I certainly owuld not have got it. I have asked for advice and asked questions - give me the advice and I will consider it. Give me real arguments as to why this is good for my dog - no one has done that. The infection risk is incidentally not my only objection. What I had really hoped for was that someone would come along and tell me why this is such a good way of feeding instead of launching into personal criticism. Blame me if you like - but I hope that if anyone read back through this thread, they will pinpoint exactly when and where this thread turned nasty and it certainly was not me!
But there you go - people who are not always confident of their own beliefs ofetn use insult rather than constructive argument.
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Rachel - I don't want to not feed carbohydrate just the right type. I have read that rice and pasta are not suitable for dogs as they predispose to diabetes. Lisa suggested potato and porridge oats - I want to know what to do with them - -how to feed them?
I feel barf feeding is irrsponsible - I am not saying you are irresponsible - you prsumably have the same evidence as me and have made your decision it differs from mine - so be it. I have said this all along
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Actually several people have told you why they feel feeding Barf is beneficial to their dogs in this thread.
The infection risk would appear to be your only objection as it is the only one you have mentioned. ( And incidently I'm still waiting for facts on what % of people are infected by their dogs - Barf fed or not!)
And as for Rachel being able to supervise her daughter around Molo's food bowl - it takes my dogs about 3 minutes at the most to eat their food. I don't find it any great hardship to stand and watch them whilst they eat so I can take their dishes up straight away! I think it is irresponsible to leave a child and a feeding dog alone together anyway!
And no I don't feed Barf! Just willing to look at both sides of the 'debate'.
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I have not examined the pooh of many wolves but have read about those who do research with wild wolves who describe this - I will try to find the link! Are you debating this Penel - are even the experts wrong?
I think a wolf's mouth is different from that of the domestic dog. I will try and find the link.
I haven't examined any wild wolf poo either - I was merely telling you that when my dogs eat a freshly killed rabbit, their poo does not have fur in it the next day...
Looking forward to the link about how a wolf's mouth is different to a domestic dog's.
And by the way it's E.coli not e-coli...
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Now you are questioning my ability as a mother as well - it gets better!
I cannot give you statistics on actual infection rates as they probably do not exist! Most food poisoning goes unreported as people put it down to "a tummy bug". I said many posts ago that I thought this was getting silly and the only reason I continued to post about it is because people keep criticising me. Generally ny children are not left with my dog when feeding, they do not handle her bowl and I cannot predict when they might. Ipresume you leave a constant supply of fresh water for your dog.
My other objections to Barf have already been touched upon. Domestic dogs are quite different from wild dogs. Research has shown that wild dogs do not have particularly good diets and are often malnourished and there fore I do not feel it is the best model for dog nutrtion to be based upon. Th infection thing is only a small part of the debate which has probably been blown out of proportion!
Again this is only my opinion and if it suits you then fine. I have also stated that i have found no clinical evidence either for or against the diet, it is my opinion from what i have read.
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Blimey - you guys ! :lol:
Time to lock this one I think.