CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: SkyeSue on May 09, 2009, 04:50:59 PM
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Well, not quite yet, but watch this space >:D
Within the last 48 hours she has swallowed a cancer research ribbon with safety pin attached....
She has given me a black eye when she head butted me during a game of chase around the living room...
And worst of all....after our lovely walk in the forest today, she jumped the forest gate onto the road and chased a load of sheep and lambs for half a mile before I caught up with her...by which time, she had been grabbed by a local couple, passing in their car, who had swerved to avoid hitting her, and had hit (but fortunately not injured) a lamb >:D.
She's off to boot camp quite soon >:D
Seriously though, I have hardly stopped crying for 3 hours...the pure terror of her being on the road, coupled with the relief that she wasn't killed, along with the knowledge we have a serious problem here....has floored me.
Hope you won't be too harsh on me....I know I have a problem here and have already e-mailed a gun dog trainer (recommended by a member on here whose opinions I value and trust) and hopefully we can sort this problem out.
Don't they just scare you to death sometimes ph34r :shades:
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Aww Sue, no advice just a big ciber (((HUGG)))... :luv:
Hope you get some good advice from the gundog trainer and just one step at a time - I sometimes feel like we are doing so well and then its a huge step backwards.
Amanda & Poppy x
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Yes they do ;)
Sounds like she will have to stay on lead when anywhere near livestock, which i imagine wont be easy on Skye.
Have you done any work with her around sheep?
Take a deep breath, it may take work but its not an un solvable problem :-*
And big hugs :-* :-* :-*
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OMG how awful for you! :o
My Milly used to "round up" cattle in the field next to us in her younger days ph34r and once when she was on the lead near sheep she slipped her collar and jumped into the field with them :huh: I panicked and screamed and I think I terrified her so thankfully she just fell to the ground. I had to a lot of work on teaching her to leave and she is fine now as long as I notice the animals in time to tell her to leave. I hope someone can help you out. :luv:
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Yes they do ;)
Sounds like she will have to stay on lead when anywhere near livestock, which i imagine wont be easy on Skye.
Have you done any work with her around sheep?
Take a deep breath, it may take work but its not an un solvable problem :-*
And big hugs :-* :-* :-*
Jo, she has been subjected to sheep since she was a tiny pup...they're absolutely everywhere here! What really got me this afternoon, is that the walk we do in that particular forest, is the one I always feel. safest on....there's no livestock, its a totally fenced off forest, in fact its the safest walk for cockers on the Island. I just didn't get her on lead quick enough and certainly had no idea she could get through the gate! I've been doing lots of long line training with her down the croft (where there is a few ewes with lambs) but obviously it hasnt worked yet!!!
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You need to keep her on the long line all the time until you're sure she'll stop/come back. And then gradually reduce the length of it week by week. If you take it on and off she'll just learn that she can ignore you if she doesn't have the long line on ;). One thing I've learnt with Millie is that once she's chased something she'll be a lot worse for a while. Each chase just reinforces the problem >:(.
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Yes they do :shades: - Connie in her younger days,slipped her collar & ran off down the road with near disastrous consequences when she ran out in front of one car and then went back across in front of another car :o - some one tried to catch her but she was enjoying her freedom to much,it was only half an hour later when my OH walked back up the road that she trotted back to him wagging her tail ,oblivious to the mayhem she had caused - At the time I threatened to send her back to the breeder ph34r,but after a lot of training and perseverance would not swap her for another :luv: - so deep breath and good luck with Chloe -you'll do it :D
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You need to keep her on the long line all the time until you're sure she'll stop/come back. And then gradually reduce the length of it week by week. If you take it on and off she'll just learn that she can ignore you if she doesn't have the long line on ;). One thing I've learnt with Millie is that once she's chased something she'll be a lot worse for a while. Each chase just reinforces the problem >:(.
agree with Sarah ;)
...and have a very large stiff drink - there are always good days and bad days with dogs - today was particularly kack but tomorrow is another day.
Give Chloe a big hug from me, tell her that she was very norty but she is still a baby so we understand ;)
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You need to keep her on the long line all the time until you're sure she'll stop/come back. And then gradually reduce the length of it week by week. If you take it on and off she'll just learn that she can ignore you if she doesn't have the long line on ;). One thing I've learnt with Millie is that once she's chased something she'll be a lot worse for a while. Each chase just reinforces the problem >:(.
agree with Sarah ;)
...and have a very large stiff drink - there are always good days and bad days with dogs - today was particularly kack but tomorrow is another day.
Give Chloe a big hug from me, tell her that she was very norty but she is still a baby so we understand ;)
Thanks Helen :embarassed: :'( :'(
I'm already on the large stiff drinks :005:
Long lines only work down the croft (wide open spaces). On our usual walks it would just be a nightmare, it just gets caught up in all the heather and undergrowth unless I keep her on the path, which I could just do with a normal lead.....so I have to juggle the training on the long line down the croft...with giving her freedom to run on "safe" walks.
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your dog is of working breed? its doing what comes naturally. first get some basic commands drilled into her then focus her behaviour into some good gundog training basics. she will beome much more obedient once she knows what is wanted of her. the best rule i use is ,dont put your dog in a situation where it can do wrong and it will only learn good .
good luck im sure she is worth the work !
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You need to keep her on the long line all the time until you're sure she'll stop/come back. And then gradually reduce the length of it week by week. If you take it on and off she'll just learn that she can ignore you if she doesn't have the long line on ;). One thing I've learnt with Millie is that once she's chased something she'll be a lot worse for a while. Each chase just reinforces the problem >:(.
agree with Sarah ;)
...and have a very large stiff drink - there are always good days and bad days with dogs - today was particularly kack but tomorrow is another day.
Give Chloe a big hug from me, tell her that she was very norty but she is still a baby so we understand ;)
Think this says it all- give yourself a hug from Fred and I and dont worry tomorrow is another day!!
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Send her to me immediately. ::)
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Hey Sue,
Bad luck, it is so upsetting when all your hard work is binned by the little darlings for a few minutes of reckless fun >:( ph34r I really feel for you as it's soo frustrating when things like this happen and people who see your dog behaving naughtily immediately think that you haven't bothered with training etc... ::)
I'd recommend that you have a nice chillaxing time this evening with your soft little girl on the sofa with a glass of wine, and just have a nice huggy time with the norty little devil :luv: I'm sure you're feeling upset at the fact that you feel like you want to kill her at the moment but also need a little furry hug too! :-* :shades: ;)
My advice would be to take quite a tough approach with Chloe as she's clearly learned that sheep are fun to chase and you need to teach her that sheep are not fun, in fact they're unfriendly, and should be avoided :police:. So my advice would be to find a sheep farmer who has a couple of rams in a medium sized pen and ask if you can put Chloe in the pen with the tups for a short time (most farmers know the score and will help you out in this way, they'll also help get Chloe out of the pen once she has been told off a few times by the tups). This method really does work wonders with instilling a deep respect for sheep into a dog that's prone to chasing sheep in the field, because the tups won't run away when the dog approaches, instead they stamp their feet, snort loudly, and rush towards the dog to get it to back off.
Then after a session with the tups if you walk your dog through a field of sheep and it takes no notice of the sheep (and might even hug close to your leg) give praise and treats etc... to reward her for her good behaviour of ignoring and avoiding the sheep ;)
This is how my two have been trained, and all it takes is one or two visits to the pen of tups (the dogs don't get hurt, they know what's best for them and soon learn to run over to you to be lifted out of the pen ;) ) for the dog to understand that there is no fun to be had with sheep. I really needed my dogs to be bombproof around livestock because on shoots fields that are being worked by your dog often have sheep in and so it would be impossible to go beating with my two if they were sheep chasers.
Good luck with Chloe :D
Best wishes,
Mary xxxx
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Hey Sue,
Bad luck, it is so upsetting when all your hard work is binned by the little darlings for a few minutes of reckless fun >:( ph34r I really feel for you as it's soo frustrating when things like this happen and people who see your dog behaving naughtily immediately think that you haven't bothered with training etc... ::)
I'd recommend that you have a nice chillaxing time this evening with your soft little girl on the sofa with a glass of wine, and just have a nice huggy time with the norty little devil :luv: I'm sure you're feeling upset at the fact that you feel like you want to kill her at the moment but also need a little furry hug too! :-* :shades: ;)
My advice would be to take quite a tough approach with Chloe as she's clearly learned that sheep are fun to chase and you need to teach her that sheep are not fun, in fact they're unfriendly, and should be avoided :police:. So my advice would be to find a sheep farmer who has a couple of rams in a medium sized pen and ask if you can put Chloe in the pen with the tups for a short time (most farmers know the score and will help you out in this way, they'll also help get Chloe out of the pen once she has been told off a few times by the tups). This method really does work wonders with instilling a deep respect for sheep into a dog that's prone to chasing sheep in the field, because the tups won't run away when the dog approaches, instead they stamp their feet, snort loudly, and rush towards the dog to get it to back off.
Then after a session with the tups if you walk your dog through a field of sheep and it takes no notice of the sheep (and might even hug close to your leg) give praise and treats etc... to reward her for her good behaviour of ignoring and avoiding the sheep ;)
This is how my two have been trained, and all it takes is one or two visits to the pen of tups (the dogs don't get hurt, they know what's best for them and soon learn to run over to you to be lifted out of the pen ;) ) for the dog to understand that there is no fun to be had with sheep. I really needed my dogs to be bombproof around livestock because on shoots fields that are being worked by your dog often have sheep in and so it would be impossible to go beating with my two if they were sheep chasers.
Good luck with Chloe :D
Best wishes,
Mary xxxx
Thank you so much for that post Mary...it means a lot to me. As it happens, my friend, Chloe's uncle Micky whom I refer to often, was the first person I phoned when I got home and, unbeknown to me, he subsequently chatted to one of the crofters here about the situation, and she is suggesting that I take Chloe up to her croft and do exactly what you are describing with a couple of her suffolks. In some ways I'm a bit annoyed with Micky that he took it upon himself to go public with my problems, but maybe it might work out for the good. I'd been meaning to ask her myself, but just hadn't got round to it...so perhaps this has brought things to a head....and I can hardly refuse this offer of help now can I?
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I'd go for it Sue :blink: Having the odd problem with your dog's behaviour is nothing to be ashamed of, all dog owners come across obstacles and challenges with their dogs, and it's good to chat about them and get help when needed. I'm sure Micky didn't mean to step on your toes, he's probably just as concerned and shaken up as you are about how close Chloe came to being in the path of a car today because of her love of sheep ;)
That's really good news that you have a friendly crofter who is willing to help :D I'm sure she'll have done this a fair few times before so don't worry about Chloe getting hurt etc... as the crofter will know how her tups react to dogs very well, and the whole idea of it is to give Chloe a better education about how being in close proximity to sheep is not an enjoyable experience. :shades:
Good luck with it all, I'm sure both Chloe and you will do just fine with all of this :D
Best wishes,
Mary xxx
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I cant add anything cuz I know nowt of how to handle this, but just to say
(((hugs and :-*))) to you both
And hope your feeling "a" okay now :luv:
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I just hope things don't go horribly wrong ;) and either dog or sheep don't get hurt.
Not saying it won't work, because in Mary's case it obviously has, but in my opinion it could be risky.
It's true dogs learn from experiences such as this, in fact I introduce feisty pups to Douglas in the same vein who tells them off but I know how he will react and can predict his behaviour. I am also covered with public liability insurance. Don't forget because it works for one dog it doesn't mean to say others will have the same success.
Alfie chased sheep when i got him but I taught him to be steady round sheep by doing lots of obedience work around them, he also has a rock solid stop whistle.
A combination of these two things were enough for us without ever putting my dog or livestock at risk.
Who pays for the vet's bills if it ends in tears?
Best of luck Sue, but be careful.
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It's true dogs learn from experiences such as this, in fact I introduce feisty pups to Douglas in the same vein who tells them off but I know how he will react and can predict his behaviour.
Very true, and a good sheep farmer who is happy to oblige with tups will know their tups characters and reaction to dogs very well. I sincerely doubt that either dog or sheep will get hurt because this exercise is very much along the same lines as using an older dog to tell a younger dog off, and neither party have any interest in injuring the other ;)
Good luck Sue!
Mary xxx
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Hi Sue, I am waiting to find out how you got on with this exersize as it's actually a very interesting thread for the rest of us, I live around sheep farms too and i have to be carefull with 2 of mine they are prone to sheep too. I think Mary as ever gave great wisdom in her advise I look forward to reading how you got on. :D
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Spoke to Mary last night (the crofter); we're not using tups we're using a suffolk ewe with a lamb that is in an enclosed area in front of Mary's house. We're also going to have Chloe in her shed with her goat. This is how Mary has trained all her dogs (one of which is a working cocker). I've to have her on lead and Mary is going to help. I'm just praying this will work and that the professional trainer who has been recommended to me will be able to do some work with us too. I am ashamed to report Chloe got off her long line down the croft this morning and chased again :embarassed: I was doing some work with her, getting to be steady in sits and downs in the field where the sheep were. She was doing really well, then all of a sudden she bolted and the long line unravelled and slips through my hand (burning me in the process). A lamb landed up in the wee burn; fortunately I was finally able to catch Chloe and tie her up and got the wee lamb free. I feel like I'm living in a nightmare scenario at the moment - the thought that I might not be able to cure this problem is too much to bear. I love that little dog to bits and cannot imagine being parted from her, but if we can't stop this I shall have to rehome her otherwise she will be shot. One of the crofter shot his own dog the other day, cos it had killed a lamb and he reckoned once the dog got the taste for blood it could never be trusted around sheep again.
Thanks for all your replies and please keep all fingers crossed for us ph34r
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I love that little dog to bits and cannot imagine being parted from her, but if we can't stop this I shall have to rehome her otherwise she will be shot. One of the crofter shot his own dog the other day, cos it had killed a lamb and he reckoned once the dog got the taste for blood it could never be trusted around sheep again.
Thanks for all your replies and please keep all fingers crossed for us ph34r
Ok I know nothing about this subject, but is it really necessary to shoot a dog (even his own dog) could he just not have re homed the dog?
I'm sure you will work through it and deal with the situation, before there was any possibility of having to re home Chloe. Good luck.
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I love that little dog to bits and cannot imagine being parted from her, but if we can't stop this I shall have to rehome her otherwise she will be shot. One of the crofter shot his own dog the other day, cos it had killed a lamb and he reckoned once the dog got the taste for blood it could never be trusted around sheep again.
Thanks for all your replies and please keep all fingers crossed for us ph34r
Ok I know nothing about this subject, but is it really necessary to shoot a dog (even his own dog) could he just not have re homed the dog?
I'm sure you will work through it and deal with the situation, before there was any possibility of having to re home Chloe. Good luck.
Thanks Vicki...I totally agree with you about the dog getting shot...I could hardly believe my ears when I was told. I know of another crofter that shot their dog because it bit someone...only once....I don't get it at all, but dogs lives seem to be pretty cheap in this part of the world >:D
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Aww Sue bad luck :-\ I think that the best thing to do is to work very closely with the crofter on this one, and get as much controlled contact with sheep as possible for Chloe to find them less interesting and to learn to ignore them (gun dog trainers use rabbit pens in the same vein, to teach their dogs not to chase the rabbits that they flush ;) ).
A ewe with a lamb is a good idea because the ewe will be very protective of her baby, although if you're worried that Chloe might be very tempted to chase the lamb and damage it, then it might possibly be a better idea to use a pair of tups who are far more robust and just as anti dog as a mother ewe. Although I'd go with the advice of the crofter as she will know which of her sheep will be the best training aids for little Chloe.
Try to feel positive about all of this :blink: I'm sure that with the help and guidance of an experienced crofter and dog owner, you will be able to curb Chloe's enthusiasm for sheep. This sort of training is part and parcel of responsible dog ownership, and like children, some dogs need a bit more guidance than others :D
Fingers crossed for you here :-*
Best wishes,
Mary xxx
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Please dont give up on Chloe she is still very young and has time to learn. Sorry for me being a bit of a thicko when it comes to sheep matters but can i ask is it a year long problem or just when lambing ? would it be possable to maybe lead walk her where the lambs are and let her free when you are clear of them ?. Fortunately i don't have a problem with sheep where i walk bonnie
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Just want to wish you good luck with the training exercises, hope it all works out, as we all know how much you love little Chloe.
And a question - is a tup an old sheep??
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Norty Chloe, giving you such heartache, they have no idea do they :luv: >:D
Just wanted to say good luck and let us know how you get on. I think rehoming is a long way off so I would put it out of your mind for now and concentrate on all the work you have to do to solve the problem.
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just caught up with this thread, no experience on this matter but just wanted to wish you luck Sue with getting Chloe over this urge of chasing the lambs . :blink:
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I love that little dog to bits and cannot imagine being parted from her, but if we can't stop this I shall have to rehome her otherwise she will be shot. One of the crofter shot his own dog the other day, cos it had killed a lamb and he reckoned once the dog got the taste for blood it could never be trusted around sheep again.
Thanks for all your replies and please keep all fingers crossed for us ph34r
Ok I know nothing about this subject, but is it really necessary to shoot a dog (even his own dog) could he just not have re homed the dog?
I'm sure you will work through it and deal with the situation, before there was any possibility of having to re home Chloe. Good luck.
farmers can shoot ANY dog on their property if it worrying their sheep - even if you see it as just chasing, the lamb can still drop dead from fright. As for shooting his own dog I think it's fair to say most Farmers don't share the same sentimentality over dogs as we do.
That's why it is so important that Sue works on Chloe ;)
Sue, Jarv learnt about sheep from a protective mother ewe - he's a real chicken though and one stare, paw of the ground and head down approach from the ewe was enough to put him off. There was no contact and it was great he learnt from the other animals themselves. My SIL had orphan lambs after that and he was around them a lot - they actually were more interested in him than he was in them (actually he was VERY wary ). It worked in his case.
Today we went through a field with heifers....he's had the same treatment from cows in the past (the head down, pawing the ground approach) and he stuck like glue to our legs - and the heifers just looked in mild interest (BTW Farmers son here recommends if charged by cows to stand your ground wave your arms and yell at them ph34r )
While I agree with Top Barks about what could go wrong I have to say in a controlled way this could help Chloe a lot and I'm with Mary on this one ;)
DON'T LOSE HEART :-*
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And a question - is a tup an old sheep??
A tup is a ram i.e: a male sheep ;)
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And a question - is a tup an old sheep??
A tup is a ram i.e: a male sheep ;)
Thank you
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Thanks for your support folks :shades:
It's really not like me to be negative about things, I guess I have to get a grip here and say that I'm very lucky to have people to hopefully help me out. There is NO WAY I would "give up" on Chloe without giving her absolutely every possible chance to live here and be happy and safe. I guess I'm just feeling a bit paranoid at the moment, and visualising the worst case scenario...I will stop it at once....I will, I will, I will :shades: ph34r
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I personally would not let any of my dogs near a tup. my friends dog has a permanent bad leg from an injury we think she got from a tup.( broken leg , pinned , nerve damage) you met jodie, sue, on our embo walk.
A tup smashed its head at very close quarters at clipping, to the leg of a friend. It completely destroyed his knee. They have some force. even a ewe if it gets the dog trapped, ie against a fence, can kill a wee dog like chloe. Ive seen a ewe hammer 7 bells out of our collie and he was tied up to the fence while we were dosing the flock, she really meant him harm. He was ok I got between them and threatened her with my crook!!
weve had endless chats about this, I think you still may have to send her away for training to richard if it doesnt work out with mary.
and yes a dogs life is at risk every time it chases sheep. ( or any livestock) the dog doesnt have to be shot by the farmer or in this case crofter.. all they have to do is report you and your dog to the police. if it happens again the courts have the power to take your dog to be destroyed.
If this had happened where I live, by now you would have had an official warning, so I think on skye they arent too harsh.
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What a nightmare for you Sue - I hope you manage to solve the problem. :-\ I do believe it is possible though with persistent training. A year ago, I really thought I would never be able to let Coco in the field with my alpacas - she would chase them at every opportunity and although she only wanted to play, they did not see it that way >:( With encouragement and support from here, I managed to train her to ignore them and now she takes very little notice of them at all and will potter in the field when I am out there. I have found a solid whistle recall a big help. ;)
We have a lot of sheep and lambs around here too and so I am very conscious of keeping her under control around them - I still don't totally trust her and would never knowingly walk her off lead near livestock but the other week we came round a corner and came upon a field full of sheep and lambs - Coco ran towards them, I blew my whistle and she came straight back - I was soooo proud!! :luv: :luv: A year ago she would have taken no notice at all ::) >:( It does take time but I am sure you will get there. In the meantime you just have to prevent her getting any opportunity to chase as they more often she does it the more she is rewarded. >:(
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I personally would not let any of my dogs near a tup. my friends dog has a permanent bad leg from an injury we think she got from a tup.( broken leg , pinned , nerve damage) you met jodie, sue, on our embo walk.
A tup smashed its head at very close quarters at clipping, to the leg of a friend. It completely destroyed his knee. They have some force. even a ewe if it gets the dog trapped, ie against a fence, can kill a wee dog like chloe. Ive seen a ewe hammer 7 bells out of our collie and he was tied up to the fence while we were dosing the flock, she really meant him harm. He was ok I got between them and threatened her with my crook!!
weve had endless chats about this, I think you still may have to send her away for training to richard if it doesnt work out with mary.
and yes a dogs life is at risk every time it chases sheep. ( or any livestock) the dog doesnt have to be shot by the farmer or in this case crofter.. all they have to do is report you and your dog to the police. if it happens again the courts have the power to take your dog to be destroyed.
If this had happened where I live, by now you would have had an official warning, so I think on skye they arent too harsh.
I agree with everything except 'sending her away for training' - I think 'residentials' are pointless - the owner needs to be the one doing the training so to work with Richard training Chloe would be better IMHO
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I agree with everything except 'sending her away for training' - I think 'residentials' are pointless - the owner needs to be the one doing the training so to work with Richard training Chloe would be better IMHO
I have e-mailed Richard, outlining what I consider to be our training priorities, and said the exact same thing Helen. If he can help us work together then fine, but I don't want to send her away. If he feels it is better to have Chloe on a residential basis, whilst I would totally respect his opinion, I just don't think it would be right for us.
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I personally would not let any of my dogs near a tup. my friends dog has a permanent bad leg from an injury we think she got from a tup.( broken leg , pinned , nerve damage) you met jodie, sue, on our embo walk.
A tup smashed its head at very close quarters at clipping, to the leg of a friend. It completely destroyed his knee. They have some force. even a ewe if it gets the dog trapped, ie against a fence, can kill a wee dog like chloe. Ive seen a ewe hammer 7 bells out of our collie and he was tied up to the fence while we were dosing the flock, she really meant him harm. He was ok I got between them and threatened her with my crook!!
This was my worry also
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I personally would not let any of my dogs near a tup. my friends dog has a permanent bad leg from an injury we think she got from a tup.( broken leg , pinned , nerve damage) you met jodie, sue, on our embo walk.
A tup smashed its head at very close quarters at clipping, to the leg of a friend. It completely destroyed his knee. They have some force. even a ewe if it gets the dog trapped, ie against a fence, can kill a wee dog like chloe. Ive seen a ewe hammer 7 bells out of our collie and he was tied up to the fence while we were dosing the flock, she really meant him harm. He was ok I got between them and threatened her with my crook!!
weve had endless chats about this, I think you still may have to send her away for training to richard if it doesnt work out with mary.
and yes a dogs life is at risk every time it chases sheep. ( or any livestock) the dog doesnt have to be shot by the farmer or in this case crofter.. all they have to do is report you and your dog to the police. if it happens again the courts have the power to take your dog to be destroyed.
If this had happened where I live, by now you would have had an official warning, so I think on skye they arent too harsh.
I agree with everything except 'sending her away for training' - I think 'residentials' are pointless - the owner needs to be the one doing the training so to work with Richard training Chloe would be better IMHO
Two sides to that argument really, I do agree with Helen in that I spend most of my time training the owners when I work. I usually can get the dogs to do what i want pretty quickly, it's just getting so that the owner can have the same control which is the hard part.
The owners body language and cues may confuse the dog where a trainers may be more consistent and clear.
so I see there are benefits to training the dog to perform certain actions by someone who knows what they're doing as long as that person is prepared to then spend time with the owner showing how to cue each behaviour.
However personally I like to know why a dog does something and what pushes its buttons in the first place and I also think that the relationship you have with your dog is key to getting them to work for you in the long run no matter how much training they've had in the past.
I want my dog to work for me and not someone else!! ;)
You could send your dog away and it come back a champion in the making, but if the owner then isn't worth working for in the dogs eyes then the training will be in vein.
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Sue, I just spotted this thread as not been around much in last couple of days. Big hugs to you, thinking of you, sorry no advice, just love :luv:
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There is NO WAY I would "give up" on Chloe without giving her absolutely every possible chance to live here and be happy and safe. I guess I'm just feeling a bit paranoid at the moment, and visualising the worst case scenario...I will stop it at once....I will, I will, I will :shades: ph34r
Aw Sue - I really feel for you - but take heart, because having read your posts on this thread and elsewhere - I don't think that "the worst" case scenario in terms of Chloes life with you would ever be as bad as you fear :-* You may have to adapt the way you exercise Chloe - and keep her on a short, secure lead in areas where she "may" be able to access livestock, but she would still have a fabulous quality of life with you, and I am sure that you can beg, borrow or steal access to safe land to give her off-lead exercise.
I know it would be culturally very different to the way in which your neighbours manage their dogs, but as you have learnt, they take these risks in the knowledge that when something goes wrong, the dog is expendable, whereas Chloe is your loved and cherished pet and so the level of risk you take with her needs to be (understandably) far lower :-\
It obviously isn't the image of dog ownership you had in mind; I used to dream of hiking for miles with a dog running loose at my side - but the reality for me is that there are too many hazards (not only livestock, but traffic and in-season bitches ::)) for that to be possible. We still get a great deal of pleasure from our hiking and use other opportunities for offlead exercise, usually on the days when we don't go hiking ;)
Remember too that Chloe is at a difficult age, and this problem may be one that takes months, or even over a year to resolve ph34r Molo was a total b*gger for running off at about 12 months old - he disappeared on a COL meet in Surrey, and caused mayhem on Ryde sefront on August Bank Holiday running in and out of the traffic after chasing the seagulls for half a mile along the beach ph34r
In order to resolve it, he was not exercised off-lead anywhere other than in totally secure spaces for about a year - there was no point in setting him up to fail - so he never went off lead when we went for a "walk" and there was a chance I would need to call him back - if it was suitable, we'd use a longline, but if not, then we walked and ran a range and variety of routes on a a short lead to give him the stimulation he needed. I used to cry sometimes, thinking he would never be able to go offlead - but the delight I felt when we went to a COL meet and he could run in areas with phessies, rabbits and horses (in the distance) secure in the knowledge that he would come back when called was fabulous :luv:
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I personally would not let any of my dogs near a tup. my friends dog has a permanent bad leg from an injury we think she got from a tup.( broken leg , pinned , nerve damage) you met jodie, sue, on our embo walk.
A tup smashed its head at very close quarters at clipping, to the leg of a friend. It completely destroyed his knee. They have some force. even a ewe if it gets the dog trapped, ie against a fence, can kill a wee dog like chloe. Ive seen a ewe hammer 7 bells out of our collie and he was tied up to the fence while we were dosing the flock, she really meant him harm. He was ok I got between them and threatened her with my crook!!
This was my worry also
Sue - how is Mary planning to work with Chloe ? You need to be 100 percent happy - I would not never tether a dog to anything to prevent it's escape from any livestock in any situation. If it's a big pen where Chloe can exit out of quickly and safely then I still would consider doing this ;)
Maybe I have ruined my dog (I don't think so really ;) ) but by exposing him in very controlled situations to stock he has learnt that they are not friendly, they're not to be played with and are best keeping very clear of. His recall is strong anyway but knowing that I can walk him through a field of stock (like today) to heel with him completely ignoring them makes me very very happy.
keep us posted :D
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I still can't believe that farmers can shoot dogs that are chasing sheep. It's just about money, not the love of the sheep. If a dog kills a sheep, it's a lose of money, and I don't think a dog should be punished for it. A dog is only doing what comes naturally to it.
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I still can't believe that farmers can shoot dogs that are chasing sheep. It's just about money, not the love of the sheep. If a dog kills a sheep, it's a lose of money, and I don't think a dog should be punished for it. A dog is only doing what comes naturally to it.
It may seem harsh but dogs cannot be allowed to worry or injure livestock. The money is not the farmer's only concern - although it is his livelihood so he is entitled to consider it - but the welfare of the sheep is important too. I know from my own experience what it is like to have animals stressed and injured by out of control dogs and it is not nice >:(
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I think as well that chloe is likely going through her teenage phase in which they like teenagers just seem to forget all the rules! but with persistence things normally sort themselves out. try not to get too stressed as you arent alone in this by a long chalk. ;)
my lot are ok around sheep and I do take them in and around the sheep.. I actually use my spaniels to help me with the sheep. but Its not automatic, loads of training went into it. daily walks through the flocks.
And the reason I suggested to "send" chloe to a trainer is there isnt one on skye and it will take some weeks perhaps, and not everyone is lucky enough to have a trainer nearby so you can go regularly or be financially solvent to get time off work as well as pay for training .Obviously the trainer will need to work with you as well. I dont think he would want it any other way, theres no point in training any animal and not the owner as what would be gained? that goes for your friend mary or anyone else you decide on.
My lot are certainly not perfect.. pepper is a madam and will take the len of me still at 11 and a half. just last week she legged it through 2 crofts after a rabbit. there were no sheep there but if there had been she would have run straight through them to get the rabbit, nightmare!
chloe is a smashing wee dog and you are doing your best and you WILL get there.! ;) :luv:
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I still can't believe that farmers can shoot dogs that are chasing sheep. It's just about money, not the love of the sheep. If a dog kills a sheep, it's a lose of money, and I don't think a dog should be punished for it. A dog is only doing what comes naturally to it.
a sheep feels pain and fear like any living animal. even a sheep going on its back can kill it. we get little enough for our sheep at market, 30 pounds for a lamb is a good price. think of all the work that goes into it, I get up at 5am to go round the sheep that are lambing . The last round is at darkening. this goes on for weeks. Its a hard life,and certainly wont make a crofter rich. every crofter has a 2nd job here as you cant make a living off the croft alone.
AND a lot of shepherds dont have a gun. ;)
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I didn't think for a moment that you would let anything happen to Chloe you only have to read about your life with her and your photos to see how much she means to you. I was just wondering that if its not a year round problem would it be possable to maybe keep Chloe on a lead and try and find some sheep free areas.
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I didn't think for a moment that you would let anything happen to Chloe you only have to read about your life with her and your photos to see how much she means to you. I was just wondering that if its not a year round problem would it be possable to maybe keep Chloe on a lead and try and find some sheep free areas.
It's certainly true that there are more sheep around just now, because they've been brought off the hills for lambing. However, they are still EVERYWHERE on the Island, and they wonder around willy nilly, on the roads as well as on crofts and hillsides. There are a few places that are sheep free (like the forest walk she escaped from on Saturday) and there are fields here and there, but the fences are mostly in a bad state and Chloe can either jump them, or get underneath them....into the adjacent field that invariably DOES contain sheep. Not that she has actually done this, but she has tried to.
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I didn't think for a moment that you would let anything happen to Chloe you only have to read about your life with her and your photos to see how much she means to you. I was just wondering that if its not a year round problem would it be possable to maybe keep Chloe on a lead and try and find some sheep free areas.
It's certainly true that there are more sheep around just now, because they've been brought off the hills for lambing. However, they are still EVERYWHERE on the Island, and they wonder around willy nilly, on the roads as well as on crofts and hillsides. There are a few places that are sheep free (like the forest walk she escaped from on Saturday) and there are fields here and there, but the fences are mostly in a bad state and Chloe can either jump them, or get underneath them....into the adjacent field that invariably DOES contain sheep. Not that she has actually done this, but she has tried to.
The thing is Sue, is that you are actively trying to do something about it. for that you have to be commended. I know how hard it is for you surrounded by the woolies year round. but dont lose heart. If it means keeping chloe on a long line until she has learned not to chase thats just the way it will have to be. for your peace of mind as well as her safety. ((hugs))
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I still can't believe that farmers can shoot dogs that are chasing sheep. It's just about money, not the love of the sheep. If a dog kills a sheep, it's a lose of money, and I don't think a dog should be punished for it. A dog is only doing what comes naturally to it.
True, a dog is doing what comes naturally to it, but it's our responsibility as dog owners to ensure as best we can that our dogs are under control!
Sue, i really hope you can successfully work on her chase instincts, i know it's not easy once it's started, even stopping my not-very-determined Lucy dog chasing the cats has been a nightmare >:( so i don't envy your task. :-\ She's probably at her worst age for this sort of thing at the moment, i would say Jarvis' recall was still hit and miss (despite constant training!) until he was about 2. Luckily here there are no sheep to worry about.
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Hi Sue
No advice I'm afraid from me, but hope the ideas put forward by others help :-* the important thing is that you are addressing the problem - lots of best wishes from us :blink:
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Sue You will crack this! and in a couple of years someone will come on COL with this exact problem and you will be there for them! mark my words ;) Just stick with it and you and Chloe will settle down and enjoy a calm family life within a short while :D
John ;)
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Well, Mary has been gathering sheep all day today (so no "training" session yet, and I've been gardening whilst Chloe sat in the back of the campervan and just watched all the goings on with the sheep and dogs. The fank (big shed where all the things they do with sheep happen!) is just across the road from me, so its all happening in front of mine and Chloe's eyes.
To answer those who asked how Mary and I are going to do this "training", I think the plan is that I take Chloe on lead into the fenced off area (not a pen, just a bit of garden really) with her suffolk ewe and lamb. She reckons the ewe will do no more than give Chloe a little fright, and my role is to bring Chloe's attention right back to me by errrr pulling on the lead and screaming at her No ph34r. She (Mary) said that there was no way Chloe could be put in with tups cos they could kill her, and anyway, its an old fashioned idea ph34r :shades: Anyway, I'm not happy about doing any lead yanking so I'm going to suggest that the lead is only there for emergency restraint, and that Chloe be rewarded for coming/turning back to me, after encountering the sheep. Does that make sense?
Anyway, its been a better day today...the sun is shining and the gardening was very therapeutic (I didn't have to be constantly thinking about Chloe >:() and we had a great (on-lead) walk to the river where I let her off for a swim.
Just one thing.....surely a working cocker NEEDS off lead runs every day.....I worry that keeping her on lead/long line is just not going to be enough for her.
Thanks for everyone's support - this is the first major problem I've had with Chloe and its felt so good to be able to share it with you guys and get such overwhelming support and guidance (even though I get a bit confused with it all sometimes :shades: :lol2:)
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You may not need to use the Voice of Doom 'NNOOOOOOOO" Sue - we used a calm 'leave' command and when he did and came back to me (very very quickly!) he got massive praise and a big chunk of livercake.
As for offlead walking - they love it yes, do they need it every day? Debatable - if the walk is training based that will wear Chloe out just as well and a bit of clicker training will in the evening as well.
How about water retrieves instead? Really tiring and you could do on long line if you wanted ;)
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You may not need to use the Voice of Doom 'NNOOOOOOOO" Sue - we used a calm 'leave' command and when he did and came back to me (very very quickly!) he got massive praise and a big chunk of livercake.
As for offlead walking - they love it yes, do they need it every day? Debatable - if the walk is training based that will wear Chloe out just as well and a bit of clicker training will in the evening as well.
How about water retrieves instead? Really tiring and you could do on long line if you wanted ;)
Thanks Helen...very reassuring ;) And guess why she was sent off into the river to fetch her ball today? Cos I was really hoping that a few swims would make up in some way for lack of a good long run :lol2: Hope I'm thinking on the right track (river :005:) here :shades: :005:
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Millie spent about seven months constantly on a long line without problems (other than how annoying they are >:( ;)). Although she still will chase, especially deer and thats my biggest problem as she chases for so long. I can now take her off lead at three different parks near me and some of the fields where I work so the hard work has been totally worth it. But i didn't imagine I'd be so confined with where she can go off lead, I've just had to change my expectations. And hopefully as she gets older she might get better :005:.
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Millie spent about seven months constantly on a long line without problems (other than how annoying they are >:( ;)). Although she still will chase, especially deer and thats my biggest problem as she chases for so long. I can now take her off lead at three different parks near me and some of the fields where I work so the hard work has been totally worth it. But i didn't imagine I'd be so confined with where she can go off lead, I've just had to change my expectations. And hopefully as she gets older she might get better :005:.
I can so relate to all of this. Rufus was awful for 18 months. He was so skinny, and could spot a flaw in sheep netting at 100 paces. At 9 months he got through and into a field of sheep he ran around and I jumped over and got him back. I was getting into the car and a man started shouting at me that my dog had killed a sheep and I must be mad to let an excitable .....dog like a b...dy cocker spaniel any where near sheep. I was speechless. Luckily a retired farmer was near by and came to my rescue. He examined Rufus expertly. He explained that a dog which has killed a sheep always has blood round his muzzle and usually round his rear end(I didn't understand this bit) and said there was no way Rufus had killed a sheep. The man went on shouting and said it was alive when he ran past a dead the next minute. The farmer said it must have had a weak heart. I asked what I should do, but the complaining man walked off. The farmer had stood in front of my reg plate. He said that it was unfair to blame Rufus, and he wasn't going to allow the man to report him. I shook for hours and felt sick.
Ever since, I have been paranoid about sheep, and Rufus is always on the flexi long retractable when we go anywhere unless I can be certain there are no sheep. He doesn't seem to look for netting flaws, but to be honest with selective deafness, if he wants to get in somewhere, he usually does, and I worry constantly.
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But i didn't imagine I'd be so confined with where she can go off lead, I've just had to change my expectations. And hopefully as she gets older she might get better :005:.
Yes, this is the same for me ph34r. I honestly imagined I'd be able to take Chloe anywhere by now...very niave of me ph34r I know that one day, I will be able to though, if I invest enough into her training....that's the challenge :shades: :D
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I can so relate to all of this. Rufus was awful for 18 months. He was so skinny, and could spot a flaw in sheep netting at 100 paces. At 9 months he got through and into a field of sheep he ran around and I jumped over and got him back. I was getting into the car and a man started shouting at me that my dog had killed a sheep and I must be mad to let an excitable .....dog like a b...dy cocker spaniel any where near sheep. I was speechless. Luckily a retired farmer was near by and came to my rescue. He examined Rufus expertly. He explained that a dog which has killed a sheep always has blood round his muzzle and usually round his rear end(I didn't understand this bit) and said there was no way Rufus had killed a sheep. The man went on shouting and said it was alive when he ran past a dead the next minute. The farmer said it must have had a weak heart. I asked what I should do, but the complaining man walked off. The farmer had stood in front of my reg plate. He said that it was unfair to blame Rufus, and he wasn't going to allow the man to report him. I shook for hours and felt sick.
Ever since, I have been paranoid about sheep, and Rufus is always on the flexi long retractable when we go anywhere unless I can be certain there are no sheep. He doesn't seem to look for netting flaws, but to be honest with selective deafness, if he wants to get in somewhere, he usually does, and I worry constantly.
What a horrible experience for you :o
It's awful when you can't let them off-lead without worrying about them...I thought I'd got to that point where I felt secure in allowing Chloe to do her own thing; it was a good feeling...while it lasted >:D >:D
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Just one thing.....surely a working cocker NEEDS off lead runs every day.....I worry that keeping her on lead/long line is just not going to be enough for her.
Hattie is half worker half show but certainly looks like a worker and has boundless energy. But, because we are in London during the week, some days she only has on lead walks (2 or 3 of them). I use them to work at her 'good' walking, and for training, and we walk fast! Often she has some off lead time in a park to run after her ball (I would love to say retrieve her ball but she still hasn't really grasped that concept!), but not always. I also aim to take her for a big walk with plenty of off lead running, somewhere like Hampstead Heath, at least once during the week, and she has a lot of off lead exercise at the weekends.
Maybe she does need off lead runs everyday and it makes me sad to think that she's not getting them if that is the case, but she seems to be doing ok with the way things are....
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I know it’s not the same with Brodie being show type, but she gets walked a lot more on lead than off. There are only a couple of (quite boring) places where I feel it is safe enough to let her off - anywhere else, if she was to spook and run off she would pretty quickly put herself in danger by running onto a busy road. It’s just not a risk I’m willing to take. I hate having her on-lead, but I’m not going to compromise her safety :-\
Within the last 48 hours she has swallowed a cancer research ribbon with safety pin attached....
What happened with her swallowing the safety pin? :o I take it there were no ill effects? This is something I could see Brodie doing >:D
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What happened with her swallowing the safety pin? :o I take it there were no ill effects? This is something I could see Brodie doing >:D
It came out the following morning, enclosed in poo, fully intact except that the pin was open :o I have been assured by Mary the crofter, who is also vet assistant, that it won't have done any damage though :shades:
I've still got the black eye from the head butt though >:D :005:
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The sun has been shining, we've done some good lead walks involving a bit of training (sits, look at me, downs whenever a vehicle passes and she was great....She met a lovely blue roan 11 yr old show type at the river today and they had a good romp together...fantastic to watch. The family are on holiday up here and were telling me they'd had their cocker half way up the mountains yesterday....so perhaps there's hope for us yet!
The sheep have all been removed from the fields in front of me (where she chased on Sunday) so I now have an open space to do long line training with her.
Also, she walked past a field of sheep today (on-lead) without as much as looking at them...not that I think thats terribly signiifcant in her training, cos if any of them had moved, she would probably have tried to jump the fence!
Might take her on a sheep-free night away up the west coast tomorrow...we both deserve some fun ;)
Thanks again for all your replies. Will keep you updated on any "training with sheep"....no further forward with that atm, but this is Highland time....everyone works very slowly and "urgency" is not in folks vocabulary here!
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I've just seen this thread. Sounds like she's making progress. :D
Don't be disheartened. It's a set-back, but Chloe has done so well over her 1st year with her lead training. I've been so jealous reading your threads about how well she's doing whist I've been developing huge bicep muscles from Harvey's pulling. She sounds like a smart girl and you've done so well training her that I'm sure you'll over come this setback in no time. :D
Lambing season is a nightmare with me too. Harvey's big field is out of bounds at the moment for off lead walking due to the lambs. Harvey's obsessed with sheep and ducks on lead (I've introduced them to him aq gazillion times but over the last few months he's found them facinating ::)).
Keep us posted on how she's doing. :D
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I've just seen this thread. Sounds like she's making progress. :D
Don't be disheartened. It's a set-back, but Chloe has done so well over her 1st year with her lead training. I've been so jealous reading your threads about how well she's doing whist I've been developing huge bicep muscles from Harvey's pulling. She sounds like a smart girl and you've done so well training her that I'm sure you'll over come this setback in no time. :D
Lambing season is a nightmare with me too. Harvey's big field is out of bounds at the moment for off lead walking due to the lambs. Harvey's obsessed with sheep and ducks on lead (I've introduced them to him aq gazillion times but over the last few months he's found them facinating ::)).
Keep us posted on how she's doing. :D
Thanks Christina, but she's only good on lead in familiar places...otherwise she's terrible! I'm so jealous of YOU, being able to teach Harvey a stop whistle...far more important than loose lead walking in my opinion....if I'd managed to teach Chloe a reliable stop whistle, these chases might not have happened in the first place >:(
Ah well, we live and learn...thank doG for all the advice on COL :luv:
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I haven't had to use the stop command in an emergency though. He's not 100% reliable
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Wow, this thread has moved on a bit since I last looked in.
So sorry you are having all this stress, but it looks like you have had some great advice. Hope it all works out, I am sure it will - you are very committed.