Author Topic: Billy - End Of My Tether  (Read 6786 times)

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Offline Pammy

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Billy - End Of My Tether
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2005, 04:46:52 PM »
Sorry to move this discussion on chaps but while not wanting to quash the discussion on puppy farmed dogs I'm not sure it's helpful to Jan/Billy and this thread is about their present problems and how they are trying so hard to resolve them. ;)

I'm not ruling out the contributing factors from breeding or the other problems etc, but if we could keep the discussion pertinent to Jan/Billy's specific case. If you wish to discuss the puppy farmed puppies experience and keep it nice and constructive as it's been up to now - would someone please start a new thread in General discussion. ;)

Thanks - hope you all understand.
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jools

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Billy - End Of My Tether
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2005, 04:51:45 PM »
I think that hearing positive outcomes to puppy farmed cockers WOULD be helpful to Jan right now. We have spoken a lot via P.M and she is at the end of her rope. I think some positive stories would give her some hope that there is a way forward with Billy. However, I understand that you do not want this thread to go down that road.

I'll start a thread in the general section

Offline Cob-Web

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« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2005, 04:54:14 PM »
Quote
I think that hearing positive outcomes to puppy farmed cockers WOULD be helpful to Jan right now. We have spoken a lot via P.M and she is at the end of her rope. I think some positive stories would give her some hope that there is a way forward with Billy. However, I understand that you do not want this thread to go down that road.

I'll start a thread in the general section
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Offline Pammy

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« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2005, 05:07:10 PM »
Jan - you will gather from this that we are all thinking about you and feel for you understanding how hard this is. Please do let us know what the behaviourist suggests today. Finger's crossed they have some useful advice for you.
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Offline Jan/Billy

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Billy - End Of My Tether
« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2005, 07:59:35 PM »
Hi Guys,

Today was good, well as good as it could be in the circumstances.

I liked the behaviourist  :) , she told me right at the start she would be totally honest and would not offer me any false hopes. What I would hear would be her honest opinion and not necessarily what I may want to hear.

She undertook a very detailed questionaire going right back to the day we first went to visit Billy at the kennel. His surroundings at that time etc etc how he reacted with us, we covered absolutley everything.


She is a member of the association of pet behaviour councellors and said in her years of experience and knowledge she is 90% +  certain that Billy does not have rage syndrome  :D . As she does not know the full details of the cocker case of rage with Billys great grandad she cannot really take that into acount. In her opinion some cockers have been PTS having been diagnosed by the vet as having rage. In her opinion vets are not the ones to make the diagnosis, it needs to be carried out by a experienced behaviourist. Some cockers PTS with rage may therefore not have been rage may actually have just been agression and dominance problems.

Billy has typical cocker  behavioural problems which she has seen over and over again in her years as a behaviourist and nothing out of the ordinary or to be overly concerned about. She said she could see by my answers given in the questionaire that Billy's dominance has slowly crept up over his young years and has gone unoticed by us.  She is sending me a full typed report and a programme to follow for a minimum of 6 weeks but didn't go onto too much detail as to what it entails. It could take months to see an improvement or it could be weeks but there is no overnight cure.

90% of the dogs that she sees for agression problems are cockers. She said when you compare the number of cockers that are sold each year to the number of cockers sold by responsible breeders who only use good lines the difference is astounding. This is why there are so many cockers out there with problems which is giving the cockers a bad name. She said because cockers are such a loving and cute breed often owners treat them like humans and pamper them, this can later cause aggression problems.

Action Plan :-
I have to buy billy a house line which he must wear whilst in the house except at bed time. He must have no access to the furniture. If he gets onto the furniture we must command him once and once only to get down, if he does not then we gently take the end of the line and lead him to the floor whilst giving no eye contact.

We must completely ignore him as though he is not there when he demands attention. Only when he is quiet with all four paws on the floor can we command him nicely to come. He must come straight away and during this time we can give him attention and cuddles etc for a few moments and then walk away. If he does not come straight away then he has missed the boat, he gets nothing, no attention.

Any growling must be totally ignored and walked away from and under no circumstances must we raise our voices or give him eye contact during this time of growling as this will be misinterpreted by Billy as an invite to confrontation.

We have to buy him an exciting new toy. We must play with billy three times a day for 5minutes with this toy and then put the toy away when we decide. No amount of demanding from billy must alter them amount of time we play for. We must always be in control , never Billy.

I must never put myself in a position where my safety may be at risk. Billy must not be fed at the exit door of the kitchen door anymore as then if he starts i have no exit. From now on i will be feeding him outside.

She did say in her report she will be strongly recommending that I have billy castrated  :(  :( . she said I have to consider this option and discuss with my vet. This will not change billy and will certainly not fix his problems but it may take the edge off any aggression that is building up inside him. She said an entire male has more testosterone in his body than a male stud.


When we are frightened we release feremones (sp???). These can be picked up by Billy straight away and this will make me look weak and give billy a sense of achievement that he is succeeding in being dominant with me. It is very important that I overcome my fear of him asap.


So its boot camp for Billy. Its only day one and i am finding it hard already. He is begging for attention.

She gave me some leaflets and a small book to read. I should receive my report in the next day or so.

Many thanks for your replies, i will keep ypu updated of my progress ( I hope!)


Sorry for the long waffle!!!



Offline Pammy

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« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2005, 08:07:28 PM »
Glad you seem positive from this Jan. I'm sure it will be a long haul but some of the things she has suggested are usual tricks of the trade and if applied religiously should yield results and hopefull soon so you can start to see an improvement.

Good luck and do update us ;)
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Offline Jan/Billy

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« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2005, 08:11:47 PM »
Quote
Hi Jan,
I'm really sorry to hear you are still having such a difficult time with Billy.
Can I ask what you feed him on please - you mentioned his favourite Bakers chewy - Bakers foods are notorious for being full of additives and colours which can make some dogs extremely hyper.
If you are not already feeding him on a simpler diet I would discuss this with the behaviourist - you need to have him on a simple food like Burns - without any colourings and chemical preservatives in it.  Diet can make a huge difference to behaviour too.
Good luck with the behaviourist and let us know what happens,
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We feed him on burns. Although he does have numerous treats during the day which are perhaps not the best. This was one of the things I had to discuss with the behaviourist and when i listed how many treats he has in a day it is quite a lot really  :ph34r: . It probably consists of :-

12 pedigree chum markies

3-4 pedigree chum schmachos

10 pedigree chum gravy bones

1 pedigree chum dentastix

it is quite a lot isn't it?? At weekends when we go to tesco we always bring him back a treat ie baker chewy bone, or one of those pedigree chum bones that are supposed to last 2 hours  :blink:  :blink:  5 minutes more like!!

In the past i tried burns natural fish treats but they smelt my house out and billy didn't like them, i have also tried jerky's (??) but they smell awful too. I have tried to look for more natural treats but there aren't that many available in the shops. Its my Oh who buys him the pedigree chum treats because Billy loves them so much. I will cut out the pedigree chum rubbish as from today. I will ring Burns tomorrow to see what treats they do and what they recommend. I am willing to try anything.

Do you recommend any particular treats??



Offline PennyB

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« Reply #37 on: September 14, 2005, 08:34:04 PM »
Instead of treats as such (may be only use certain treats like the schmackos for training) why not make up a kong. Mine love them and I tend to make mine up with low fat cream cheese/fish paste and their Burns food and just ram it in until its quite compact
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Offline Jan/Billy

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« Reply #38 on: September 14, 2005, 08:52:09 PM »
Quote
Instead of treats as such (may be only use certain treats like the schmackos for training) why not make up a kong. Mine love them and I tend to make mine up with low fat cream cheese/fish paste and their Burns food and just ram it in until its quite compact
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The reason he has so many treats is that he gets treated everytime we leave him when we go out or when we  go to bed. Mon to Fri this means he is treated at least 4 times a day.

Once in the morning when i leave for work
Then again by my OH when he goes back to work at lunch time
Then again by me when i go back to work at lunch time
Then at night when we go to bed

This is something we have done since he was 8 weeks old and i feel a bit cruel to put a stop to it as he is such a good boy when we are going out. As soon as he hears your keys he runs straight into his bed and waits for his treat. He also gets treats when we are out walking and he does a good recall.

I do Kongs with chicken paste sometimes as a special treat in the morning but its not that often to be honest. I need to make more effort with his kong. I use sandwich paste, chicken,beef, ham or salmon. Are these ok?  

I used to use one of those balls where you put dried food inside it and as he pushes it along the floor a bit of food  pops out. He used to love it but eventually got bored with it  :blink:


One thing he loves.......don't laugh........cherry tomatoes. He goes mad for them , i give him one very occassionally as someone told me they are bad for dogs, is this true??
 



Offline Colin

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Billy - End Of My Tether
« Reply #39 on: September 14, 2005, 08:52:54 PM »

Hi Jan

Sorry to hear of the problems you've been having but good luck with the new regime the behaviourist has advised - although it will be difficult at first I'm sure you'll gradually get used to it.

I had to cover the screen when reading  how many treats you give Billy - I was afraid Jimmy and Misty would see and pack their favourite toys to go and live at your house. :D In the past I've fed all those Pedigree treats ( not in those quantities though :D ) but have tried to cut them out now in favour of things with less additives. James Wellbeloved do some good treats - Crackersnacks etc. I've been getting crispy pigsnouts and crispy chicken skin from this site...

http://www.a1petstop.co.uk/acatalog/A1PetS...l_treats_4.html

I'm not sure they are healthy as such but they are natural, so no nasty additives. Jimmy and Misty love them but always have to work for them.

Good luck again. ;)

Offline Lottie

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« Reply #40 on: September 14, 2005, 09:10:01 PM »
YOu sound so much more positive now you have a plan - its great to read  :D

The plan sounds very sensible, it might be hard for you to be strict but if you can I am sure it will do the trick.

We give our 3 dogs treats when we leave the house, we find it very useful to prevent anxiety - I am sure you will find something suitable to replace it with. We use carrots (but then in addition to the cocker we have a lab and a retriever, so not the fussiest dogs in the world!!!) They like apples too -any fruit except grapes (they like them but apparently they are not good for dogs) we sprinkle it into their beds so maybe you could hold back a bit or his regular kibble as the treat.

Good luck, ignore dumb comments from people who have more opinion than knowledge  :rolleyes:

Offline PennyB

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Billy - End Of My Tether
« Reply #41 on: September 14, 2005, 09:11:59 PM »
Quote
I do Kongs with chicken paste sometimes as a special treat in the morning but its not that often to be honest. I need to make more effort with his kong. I use sandwich paste, chicken,beef, ham or salmon. Are these ok? 

I used to use one of those balls where you put dried food inside it and as he pushes it along the floor a bit of food  pops out. He used to love it but eventually got bored with it  :blink:


One thing he loves.......don't laugh........cherry tomatoes. He goes mad for them , i give him one very occassionally as someone told me they are bad for dogs, is this true??
[snapback]146047[/snapback]

Paste is OK but not all the time because of the salt content. Some use unsalted peanut butter but never tried it myself. Somewhere on the internet there are kong recipes. Some freeze them and others put in cheese and microwave them to melt it.

Don't tell Wilf about the cherry tomatoes as he loves stealing them from my hanging basket!

I only leave mine with kongs if I go out and only every now and then
Friends of Hailey Park
Four Paws Animal Rescue (South Wales)

Cockers are just hooligans in cute clothing!

Offline Magic Star

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Billy - End Of My Tether
« Reply #42 on: September 14, 2005, 09:13:06 PM »
Jan, soo pleased to hear you so positive now, we are all here 100% to support you and listen to the progress.  I really admire all you are doing for Billy :)   I'm not sure where in Lancs you are, but if ever you fancy a walk and a gab, just pm me :)


Offline suki1964

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« Reply #43 on: September 14, 2005, 09:24:42 PM »
Jan

Its great to hear you sounding so much more positive. As been said before me, we are all here to support you and Billy. Its great that you have come across a behaviourist you get on with and whos certain that Billy can be helped.

Good luck and keep us posted

Caroline and Alfie

Offline Jan/Billy

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« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2005, 09:51:19 PM »
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Hi Jan

I had to cover the screen when reading  how many treats you give Billy - I was afraid Jimmy and Misty would see and pack their favourite toys to go and live at your house. :D http://www.a1petstop.co.uk/acatalog/A1PetS...l_treats_4.html

[snapback]146048[/snapback]

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

I had a look on this site, some of the items on there made my stomach go queesy  :ph34r:  :ph34r:  

Think I will try dried liver and tripe. Really don't think I could handle the snouts and lung  :D  :D


Thanks very much  :D