barf debate

[kb]

The main sources of toxoplasmosis are from raw meat and can be passed to humans that way. If the dog has eaten something that is infected by toxoplasmosis which has not been eradicated in cooking, it will remain live in the dog faeces - as will salmonella, listeria, e-coli, campylobacter and so on. Because dogs digest their food more quickly, as their digestive tract is shorter they may not necessarily suffer from infection (there is always a chance they will though). These and other parasites are excreted live by the dog and theoretically pose a risk of infection. Now some may argue that the risk is minimal but these are serious infections that in children, the elderly and immunologically compromised (people on chemo and so on) could be life threatening. Dogs are not the cleanest species on earth and pooh can get carried into the house and so on their paws, fur or chidlrens feet and so on. There is no data to say if this is not a real problem, but infections have been reported in dogs.

I know some people don't support this as being a risk - but it is always there and therefore needs to be considered. If cats are a risk, theoretically so are raw fed dogs.

I just know I am going to regret posting this - I have been trying not to cause an argument. By the way I am a nurse, which is maybe why I am so paranoid. Who knows?

[Penel]

If you worm your dogs (and cats) regularly you shouldn't have to worry about toxoplasmosis....or tapeworm for that matter  

[silkstocking]

My midwife did ask if I wormed my dogs regularly which I do!!! So thats obviously why she wasnt concerened about the risk of toxoplasmosis to me!! xxxx

[kb]

You do of corse if they eat in infected meat - the major source of infection. Unless of course you worm them everyday, More pregnant women get toxoplasmosis from undercooked meat than from cat faeces and any website on toxoplasmosis will confirm this. Raw meat is the primary source of infection for toxoplasmosis.

[Rhona W]

Garlic is fine in small amounts and is known to be a natural flea/tick repellant.

It's supposed to be a headlice repellant in humans too.

I have no worries with raw, none what so eve, I honestly mean that. But I have so much contact with so many dogs who are fed a raw diet and I can honestly say they thrive and have few health problems, and non relating to diet. My friend has 12 cockers all fed a raw diet, the oldest cocker is 17!! Its suited him no problmeo!!! But I understand why people may worry, if I did not have it infront of me on a daily basis then it might concern me, buit honestly it doesnt.

I think this is quite an important point. I don't know anyone personally who feeds Barf so have no-one to compare with /get advice from. I think I may be braver and give it a try if I did. (What I would really need is a weekly menu!)
As it is, we are tired of poos bordering on dia-whatsit so we're going to give Arden Grange a try! 

[silkstocking]

You do of corse if they eat in infected meat - the major source of infection. Unless of course you worm them everyday, More pregnant women get toxoplasmosis from undercooked meat than from cat faeces and any website on toxoplasmosis will confirm this. Raw meat is the primary source of infection for toxoplasmosis.

But isnt the point of wormer that it lasts for a set period, so for example drontol lasts for three months, so your dog would have 3 months protection from nasty wormy parasites!?!?!

I dont eat meat so theres no chance of me getting toxoplasmosis from undercooked meat through consumption!!

Thank you for the info! I am happy to go with the fact that my midwife is not concerned about the risk of me getting toxoplasmosis, but I appreciate you pointing out the other side!

[Penel]

I wash my hands after feeding the dogs, the same as I do after cutting up raw meat that we are going to eat....
If anyone is that paranoid about germs they shouldn't have a dog (or cat), after all - they eat unmentionable things, and lick their bums  

Lisa - the wormer isn't preventative, it treats them for worms whether they have them or not...

[silkstocking]

Lisa - the wormer isn't preventative, it treats them for worms whether they have them or not...

Thanks Penel!! 

[Penel]

You're welcome 

[Mich]

If the dog has eaten something that is infected by toxoplasmosis which has not been eradicated in cooking, it will remain live in the dog faeces -

Kind of!!

If the animal ingests cysts from meat, then as they pass through the digestive system they change, so that when they are excreated they are NOT infective straight away. It takes at least 24hrs for the poop to become infective, which is why it is so important to pic up  poop straight away.

[kb]

Aside from the risk of transmission of toxoplasmosis - there is the risk of transmission of live pathogens that worming will certainly not eradicate (as mentioned before). It is a real risk!

Incidentally, even if the poop has been lifted striaght away the risk remains for tiny amounts to be left behind which are enough for these microscopic organisms to live. Provided you are sure there are no traces left at all - you will be fine.

I will concede that i may not be entirely right about transmission from dog faeces to human anyway in toxoplasmosis - the organism apparently does not complete its full life cycle in the dog - only in the cat. However humans and dogs can be infected from raw meat and there is evidence that some dogs have been seriously ill. Also the more exposure you have to raw meat the higher the chance of you becoming infected, no matter how scrupulous you are.

Look I don't want to get into an argument - just expressing my reasons why I feel I can't feed it. I hope I am not offending anyone.

[Mich]

Yes cats are the only definitive host for toxoplasmosis.   Therefore if humans are preparing raw meat for themselves anyway then why would Barf be a problem with regards to toxoplasmosis?

[silkstocking]

Provided you are sure there are no traces left at all - you will be fine.

Well we should be okay round here!! As many COLers know my OH is obsessed with cleaning!!!! He likes everything spic and span anyway as I have mentioned in a post before, he disinfects the garden   He has had dogs all his life and it is something he has always done, so with any luck we may be raw meat eaters round here (well the dogs not me I am a veggy!!!) but we are very clean ones!!!!!!

  He doesnt disinfect becuase of BARF just to make it clear! Its just his family always have as they have owned a lot of animals in one space! So its like second nature to him!

[Penel]

Look I don't want to get into an argument - just expressing my reasons why I feel I can't feed it. I hope I am not offending anyone.

you are actually offending me - you titled this "debate" and yet it seems to be just a thread for you to slag off the BARF diet / natural diet / raw diet, whatever you want to call it.  You should have titled it "reasons not to feed BARF" if that is how you feel...

[kb]

I suppose it is because you are handling more raw meat - people found to be most likely to be contaminated are those who handle raw meat regularly, for example, butchers. Raw meat is the primary source of contamination - the more often you handle it the higher the risk - as well as the risk to the dog.

But we are not talking about the risk from salmonella, campylobacter, listeria e-coli and so on which is passed live in dog faeces. There is no real studies either way about this - but there are preliminary studies, one of which is decribed in the Canadian Veterinary journal. There were two groups of 10 dogs - one on commercial food;one on BARF. The prepared meal and the dogs stool was tested in each. 100% of the meals and stools in the commercial group were salmonella free. 80% of the barf meals were contaminated with salmonella and 30% of stool samples had shed salmonella. This is a genuine risk and obviously warrants caution and further investigation. Not only does it cite faeces as being a risk, but the dogs mouth, feeding bowl, the feeding area and presumably chew toys etc must also be considered a risk.

That is why I feel the combination of small children (which is my concern rather thamn myself), dogs and a BARF diet are a risk. No matter how scrupulous we are with our hygiene and no  matter how quickly we clear up faeces - small children and dogs do not have the same knowledge. Surely this is not an unreasonable argument and one that is well founded. I have small children - there is doubt over the safety ofthe diet. Yes risks are there for everything, but we must minimalise the risks where possible.