Attacking and being attacked

[viv]

Hi everyone...   HELP
William...now nearly 2... has turned into a quite aggressive dog and i don't know what to do about him.
Today we went for our normal walk and as soon as he's fluffy feet touched the park a springer spaniel came up to him, William stood still and the springer went for him and chased him round the park snapping at William's body trying to get a hold of him...the young boy who was with the springer said that his dog had never done anything like that before.  After that we went to the beach, where William was attacked again by a snappy terrier, then a lab came walking past   and Will went for him, chasing him up the beach trying to bite him. He also did the same thing to a cocker on the beach last week.

I'm at my wits end never knowing if Will is going to attack another dog or be attacked, it doesn't make for a stress free walk i can tell you that.
He was at the vets this week for an absess on his back foot and while i was there i spoke to her about it and she said i shoud have him castrated as this would stop other dogs having a go.

He was such a non-aggressive dog, but now i never know if he will attack, be attacked or just walk by.

Any ideas, thanks
Vivl                    

[Jane S]

Hi Viv

I'm not convinced that castration will sort William's problems out - he has learned that sometimes dogs attack him which makes him edgy & on the defensive so sometimes he will have a go first just in case. This is learned behaviour now - it's not his male hormones making him fall out with other dogs , it looks more like a fear of being attacked is making him behave this way. You could try him on the Tardak injections to test whether castration will have any affect - these are hormone injections which mimic the affect of castration on a short term basis (ask your vet about them) I would have reservations about castrating a fear-agressive dog as neutering takes away the male hormone but this hormone also gives a dog confidence - take away this confidence & William could become even more fearful.                    

[PennyB]

Have you thought of a few 1-2-1 sessions with a good dog trainer (worth the money). I've seen my trainer use disks for this with other dogs (and also read about their use in cases like this).                    

[viv]

There is a trainer who has an advert in the local pet shop, i have thought about having him come round and see William and his reaction to other dogs.  William has alway been timid around other dogs, he only saw other cockers until i had him (aged 1) and i don't think he really knows what to do when he meets another dog.  Up until now he has barked and then headed for the hill if another dog barks back, but over the last few weeks he has stood his ground which alas  has got him into trouble.
Thanks for the advise...and i agree with you Jane, i think "having the chop" will be a last resort for me and obviously William
Viv                    

[Colin]

Hi Viv

I can really sympathise with your plight having encountered similar problems with Jimmy for a while.

A couple of months ago  when Jimmy was just under 18 months old he got set upon 3 times on one walk. I posted on here and the advice I received was to have his anal glands checked. I went to the vets and they were indeed blocked. Unblocking resulted in about a week of trouble free walks . Unfortunately he then went through a period of regular confrontation with other dogs, always male. Suddenly my favourite part of the day had become fraught with anxiety, craning my neck to check out any approaching dog to see if it was a male. These incidents were on a daily basis and ranged from growling/teeth baring to a couple of really viscious fights. At the time I was too depressed to even post on here about it so turned to Jane for advice and she was very heplful as usual.

Just to let you know that these problems disappeared as quickly as they started and I've had no trouble for months now. I never really got to the bottom of what it was all about. It appeared to me that the other dog was the aggressor on all but one occassion. I don't know if Jimmy had been spooked by the initial incidents and was becoming over defensive and giving out the wrong signals or maybe misinterpreting the other dogs' signals.......it was all completely mystifying. It could have been a "teenager" thing, who knows ? As with William, Jimmy was getting beaten up as a result of standing his ground.......it was really scary. Prior to this I'd walked him for over a year without the slightest hint of any aggressive behaviour to other dogs, or indeed from other dogs to Jimmy.

Castration was the first thing that sprang to my mind as a solution. I'm really glad I didn't get this done as the problem seems to have vanished now, he has learnt that backing down is better than taking a mauling from a bigger dog. I seem to remember learning a similar lesson as an adolescent. Hopefully you will find the same outcome with William too.

Good luck.                    

[Dessie]

Hi Viv

Sorry to hear that William is still getting attacked.  

Sebastian was only attacked once when he was a puppy by a Jack Russell and from that moment he is very wary of them and goes on the defensive as soon as he seems one    Its funny though as it isn't every Jack Russell just some that obviously remind him of that one !!  

If another dog has a go at him, Sebastian will have a go back and it doesn't matter how big they are !!  He also stands up for the other two.  

On another occassion we were at a Dog Show had taken the dogs out for a wee etc and came across this Border Collie that had blue eyes.  It flew for my friends dogs out of the blue and Sebastian was quite keen to defend his friends.  All the dogs were on a lead apart from this Border Collie.  A week or two later we were out walking along the coat and we came across this dog - Sebastian flew for it which I was quite shocked by - but it turned out to be the same Border Collie !!!  He had remembered it from weeks gone by.  

I think William is being on the defensive side attack rather than be attacked.  With your guidance I'm sure you will get this problem sorted.  Just practice your recalls and look to see what dogs are coming your way.  Try and keep him interested in you which I know is easier said than done but this is how we've over come the Jack Russell problem.  

HTH

Dessie                    

[Shirley]

Hi Viv
It must be awful for you, worrying every time you go for a walk.  Morgan has never been in a fight, as such.  Although he has been set upon four times and each time it was a Jack Russell (sorry to anyone who has one, but every one I've met has had an chip on it's shoulder).
These have only been brief, as he's been on the lead every time and I've managed to scare the agressive dogs away.  Morgan has never growled or bitten back.  Sometimes I think he's a bit too trusting - he went up to a rotweiller (sp?) off lead the other day and it's hackles went up.  I don't want to put him off greeting other dogs but it is scary  :-.
I had an Old English Sheepdog when I was growing up and he was great with people, wouldn't hurt a fly - but he couldn't pass another dog without trying to fight with it.  I know how worrying it can be.
Have you had a chance to find out if William has the same problem as Jimmy had?  I really hope you manage to solve Williams problem.  I'm sure you will, as he's obviously not naturally aggressive, it seems to be a reaction to certain situations he finds himself in.
Good luck                      

[viv]

Thanks to everyone for there advise,

I am hoping this is just a temporary thing and that he is just "finding he's feet".  Yesterdays walk was fine, down on the beach, loads of dogs, me walking backwards and forwards dodging other dogs :-... tho saying that the one's Will's met he had no problem with...thank the Lord!
I did distract him a lot with an empty plastic bottle...which he loves...and it worked quiet well.

I do find that Will's is the one who flies over to the other dog and i think i really need to get his attention back on to me... which i managed yesterday.

Oh baby steps
Viv                    

[montsmum]

Viv, your post has reassured me that my Monty is not the only one with this problem!
He is almost 5, and started the defensive/aggression thing with male dogs a few months ago. We used to assume it was purely defensive behaviour, but it's got worse recently...he is more the aggressor and it's getting embarrassing!
At home, and with people, he is a sweet dog who is not at all aggressive. I walk him on a lead as he can get excitable and easily distracted off it, and was once hit by a car.
He went to dog training when younger, with little 'success', e.g. he thought it was Christmas and his birthday when they threw toys at him...(he was supposed to ignore them!), so I don't know if training re aggression would work...however, as his coat already makes him resemble a womble, I'm reluctant to risk the side effects of castration!                    

[PennyB]

A good trainer can help identify what the problem might be—I know mine often works on this sort of thing (he has a number of his own dogs at the centre I go to and uses them as distractors or to establish a problem with other dogs). Training is not just about sit, stay etc., its also about dealing with unwanted behaviours in a relatively 'safe' environment. You'll often find that its usually the owners that need the training. Cockers can be hard work to train as they are so stubborn so giving up on early training can sometimes cause problems further on. In Ruby's 1st puppy class she was labelled as a 'b***y spaniel, which was very unhelpful as basically all she was doing was being a typical 'busy' spaniel. I took her to another trainer who was brilliant with her and anything he asked her to do she did (in the 1st 5 minutes she proved the 1st trainer who hadn't the foggiest idea about cockers, very wrong). In the early days Ruby had pyoderma aorund her mouth and its soreness made her very grumpy if you touched that area. As time went on she remembered the pain even though it was no longer there and so began to snap at me every time I looked at her mouth, but the trainer helped us overcome this problem.

Have you also thought of TTouch (http://www3.sympatico.ca/tilleyfarm/HomePage.html). A good friend of mine who is now a practitioner in training swears by it.

Not every problem is solvable with the above but worth pursuing.

If you have insurance I know some insurers allow you to be able to see a behaviourist.