Square peg, round hole

[Dragon]

Hi everyone,

I thought I'd start this thread in light of the behaviour problems we're having with Molly. Both my OH and myself come from families who firmly, never having had a dog that has bitten one of its human family members, believe that dogs should know their place in the pecking order. Hence, we're getting a lot of stick for perservering with Molly

Having skimmed through sections of The Culture Clash, I can understand why we have been so disappointed with Molly, she really does challenge what we have both been brought up to believe about how dogs should fit in with humans.  It has been really interesting to read that some of you also have dogs like Molly.  Although I would dearly love to have a dog that I could cuddle without being bitten, I have got to thinking whether we should accept her for what she is and stop trying to fit this square peg of a dog into a round hole. I read in The Culture Clash that there are two ways to deal with Mollydogs: manage their behaviour/environment or try to modify it.

Would love to hear what other COLers think?

[Jan/Billy]

At home with my parents we had two dogs, one of which had a litter which my parents raised & cared for. All of the dogs were fabulous dogs and we never ever had any kind of behavioural problems.

I always thought like my parents did, that a dog should behave at all times & should know who is the boss. That is until , like you, we started having problems with Billy. I can honestly say, hand on heart, I don't know where we would be today if it wasn't for COL & in particular Colin for sending me his copy of culture clash to read. It really opens your eyes to the fact that dogs shouldn't be expected to live up to our expectations because a lot of the time our expectations are too high.They are DOGS not humans & yet it's dogs who we expect the most from, more than any other animal.

My dad adores Billy, but during our recent two week holiday  when Bily stayed with him, despite the rules I left , Billy bit one of my dads visitors. I can see how it happened and why, but dad has told me straight that if Billy was his dog then he would be gone. Not because he doesn't love Billy but because he could never ever live with himself if Billy bit someone & caused a scar or even worse a nasty injury. It's a risk he wouldn't be prepared to take with any dog.

I have not had one single visit from any of my family members (apart from my dad) in the past 18 months, this is because they think billy is "mad". My nanna , who had German shepherds, said Billy needs a rolled up newspaper  

I love Billy & although I will never judge anyone on the decisions they make, I will never give him up, ever because instead I control HIS  environment. Providng people who enter Billy environment do as I say they won't get bitten, ignore me and there is a chance they will.

Billy is Billy, he can't be changed now so I do have to manage him he is what he is.

I do sympathise with you but you have to make your own decision as it's you, not them, who has to live with WHICHEVER decision you make.

[Jan/Billy]

I read in The Culture Clash that there are two ways to deal with Mollydogs: manage their behaviour/environment or try to modify it.

Would love to hear what other COLers think?

I think in theory yes you probably can modify their behaviour, it's practice thats the tricky , if not impossible bit 

[PennyB]

Also if you think about it 'we' often expect dogs to put up with things we ourselves wouldn't tolerate from other humans.

I think there's also a perception that cockers should be like their chocolate box image --- all cuddly etc. (which they are but in varying degrees and because some can be strong willed it can be diffiucult to get your head round them)

[Dragon]

dad has told me straight that if Billy was his dog then he would be gone. Not because he doesn't love Billy but because he could never ever live with himself if Billy bit someone & caused a scar or even worse a nasty injury. It's a risk he wouldn't be prepared to take with any dog.

I have not had one single visit from any of my family members (apart from my dad) in the past 18 months, this is because they think billy is "mad".

Jan/Billy, this is exactly what we are facing too. I haven't dared tell my parents that Molly has had a MRI scan- after all. what a waste of money . My dad's view is that it is a shame Molly is how she is, but we should basically write her off as a bad experience. I have noticed that my boys are nervous/reluctant to bring their friends home and family visits are becoming scarce too. But, you know, since I started to think differently, I feel Molly is happier. I so admire your love for Billy and your determination to both manage/limit the triggers to his biting. You are a real inspiration.

[Cob-Web]

I have owned a Molly/Billy-dog called Sheba, and I was totally unequipped to deal with it 

Thinking back, we did manage her environment, but I do not believe we did so sufficiently, and as a result I think her life may have been shortened ...although hindsight is a wonderful thing 

If I were in the same situation again, I would not only seek to modify the behaviour, but also manage the environment to eliminate the opportunity for the behaviour to occur......does that make sense?   

From what I have read (Culture Clash and many other references, most gleaned from COL  ), I have put together the following scenario that Sheba-dogs find themselves in 
Sheba-dog is subject to a trigger, that causes her to bite, maybe through fear, or guarding but whatever the reason, she has been subject to stress and anxiety This in turn, temporarily reduces her ability to learn, and her tolerance to further triggers, and so she finds it more difficult to learn until her stress chemical levels have returned to normal.......but if she is subject to another trigger in the mean time, her stress level goes back up again........and the poor girl can end up in a cycle where she always has a raised level of stress-chemicals  This can lead to physical symptoms, which can make it more difficult for her to learn, and may make her more reactive to triggers....and on and on it goes 

Personally, I don't think it is possible to implement a successful behavioural modification programme unless the environment is also managed....otherwise the dog does not have the best possible chance of succeeding in modifying its behaviour 

[Dragon]

Personally, I don't think it is possible to implement a successful behavioural modification programme unless the environment is also managed....otherwise the dog does not have the best possible chance of succeeding in modifying its behaviour 

That makes perfect sense to me. As a primary school teacher, I have to deal with behaviour issues. That too is controversial, as some children need positive reinforcement for most things that you take for granted as expected behaviour.

[Jan/Billy]

If I were in the same situation again, I would not only seek to modify the behaviour, but also manage the environment to eliminate the opportunity for the behaviour to occur......does that make sense?   

totally. This is what Billys behaviourist said to me. Billy hates hands, hands that reach out over him & touch him. He's fine with me but strangers or most other people are a definate no. So I don't allow people to stroke him, or tower over him so now the opportunity for him to bite is no longer there & his stress is eliminated as much as I can.

[Dragon]

Billy hates hands, hands that reach out over him & touch him. He's fine with me but strangers or most other people are a definate no. So I don't allow people to stroke him, or tower over him so now the opportunity for him to bite is no longer there & his stress is eliminated as much as I can.

Molly gets little fusses...any more than that and she bites I am trying to walk her at times when no one around, so v early or late but the other night I took her out earlier. She's v good at waiting if off lead and in front of me, but another dog walker appeared around a corner and started to pat her vigourously on her head. I called out not to pat her and the dog walker was quite short with me telling me Molly shouldn't be off lead id she bites. I must admit, I felt ashamed. Molly has a muzzle, but she likes to pick up empty bottles/sticks and I don't like to deprive her of that.  Guess I'm still learning...

[Dragon]

My nanna , who had German shepherds, said Billy needs a rolled up newspaper  

Just remembered, a locem vet who examined Molly pronounced her as 'Little Satan' to everyone in the waiting room and told me she needed baseball bat treatment.

[Jan/Billy]

My nanna , who had German shepherds, said Billy needs a rolled up newspaper  

Just remembered, a locem vet who examined Molly pronounced her as 'Little Satan' to everyone in the waiting room and told me she needed baseball bat treatment.

cheeky get!!!! I'd have been furious 

[Jan/Billy]

Molly gets little fusses...any more than that and she bites I am trying to walk her at times when no one around, so v early or late but the other night I took her out earlier. She's v good at waiting if off lead and in front of me, but another dog walker appeared around a corner and started to pat her vigourously on her head. I called out not to pat her and the dog walker was quite short with me telling me Molly shouldn't be off lead id she bites. I must admit, I felt ashamed. Molly has a muzzle, but she likes to pick up empty bottles/sticks and I don't like to deprive her of that.  Guess I'm still learning...

This is an interesting point that no doubt would have differing opinions. I don't muzzle Billy, it freaks him out too much, but he is rarely off lead & when he is he is very close to me. He will only bite if stroked to the point where he's had enough but if people ask before stroking then no one will get injured, but I know this view won't be shared by many 

[spanielcrazy]

So many excellent points raised here! 

I think part of the key to dealing with these kinds of dogs is precisely what you mentioned: to accept them for what they are. Not in passive resignation but true acceptance; "this is my dog, he/she can't do this or that, but he/she can do this or that" To remove from the situation the weight of our disappointment and frustration, because dogs are like sponges and soak up the emotional atmosphere that we may be totally unaware of, or that may be subconscious on our part. To take that emotional burden off them removes their stress level and makes progress with them possible. And don't doubt for a second that dogs are very emotional creatures!

[LurcherGirl]

Something to look into with aggressive dogs is thyroid, malfunction can often cause aggression problems. However, vets here in the UK don't do a full panel and the best thing would be to take the blood here and send off to the States (there is one vet there that takes age, breed etc into consideration to test properly).

Other things to look into are tumours (e.g. brain) and also pains and aches. I always recommend to see a McTimoney chiropractor for aggressive dogs, as vets don't always pick up on issues with the skeletton and muscles. Our Pyrenean's dog aggression improved drastically after chiropractor treatment.

Vera

[cdpops]

This is a great thread, that will help anybody think about the advantages and disadvantages of owning a fear aggressive dog.
We did consider having Charlie PTS at one point and many people "advised" us that this was the best thing to do, probably the same peopple who advised us to show him who was boss and carry out dominance excises with him. We chose to try one last behaviourist, who helped alot, and I think not having children made it easier for us to peresvere.
I too muzzle Charlie in situations that can't be avoided when I know he may bite, for example the vets and groomers. In between that I use a clicker and positively reinforce any touching he does tolerate, Charlie HATES his back legs feet etc being touched. He would not let you touch his front legs/paws at first but is now quite tolerant of this as long as the liver cake smell is in the air.
Luckily for us Charlie has never bitten a stranger, we walk him, mostly, in the same place and the majority of other people who go there are dog walkers and they know his history and so do not approach him. My main fear is children as they just don't seem to listen to me. Luckily his recall is very good and kids tend to be loud, so I always put him on his lead.
Last night on too occasions, and I think for the first time evr, Charlie came to me and pushed my arm for a stroke and his tail wagged like mad when i did so!
Sorry I am going on a bit!