Square peg, round hole

[cdpops]

I hope thing settle for you all and Molly adapts well to her new lifestyle. You have defiantly been through the mill recently.
This site is so helpful I want Mark (top barks) to buy the house for sale next to me! 

[Top Barks]

I  do hope Jo and Tim (Molly's owners) don't mind me saying this but when i went to see Molly yesterday I saw a dog with a big mistrust of humans for whatever reason.
The behaviours I saw were not consistant with those I have seen described as rage.
Make no mistake Molly goes rigid and has a stare that would scare the living daylights out of most people but for me this was fear plain and simple.
I also saw a dog who was in a state of conflict( she wanted to come to you but got so far and was scared)
Tim and Jo were fab and I did ask a lot of Molly in our two hour session.
I saw the full force of Molly's reaction which is scary to say the least.
I have advised Tim and Jo to work on building trust by hand feeding and doing lots of clicker exercises.
I also advised that they must go at her pace and use no pressure whatsoever.
They are aware that management of Molly's issues will play a big part in her rehab and they are also aware that they may never have the typical cocker that they have with their other dog Sasha.
I have advised a houseline and exercises to desensitize Molly to touch, the collar and the Muzzle which is in my oppinion essential for her if off the lead in public.
I have also been wondering since our meeting if drug therapy might help in her case and this might be worth taking up with your vet.
Some dogs have been helped by using an anti depressant drug such as Fluoxetine which inhibits the re-uptake of the neurotransmitter seretonin in the brain bringing about a happy and more positive state of mind.
Mark

[Dragon]

Drug therapy maybe of more use to me and Jo, than Molly right now  We will update the other thread (http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=26862.0) regarding medical route for Molly.

I have continued the clicker training with Molly this morning and she has responded well to me moving the leaders gently round her.

Many thanks for your help yesterday Mark, it was a real help for me to start repairing my relationship with Molly by using the clicker to reward postive behaviour.

We will post regular updates on this thread about how her bevaviour changes as we progress with the clicker training.

[spanielcrazy]

I have also been wondering since our meeting if drug therapy might help in her case and this might be worth taking up with your vet.
Some dogs have been helped by using an anti depressant drug such as Fluoxetine which inhibits the re-uptake of the neurotransmitter seretonin in the brain bringing about a happy and more positive state of mind.
Mark

I was wondering about this too and was going to suggest it

It's going to be a hard mountain to climb with Molly, but we accept it's our responsibility and this is how Molly is

You are doing wonderfully and we can all see how committed to her you are! 

[Penel]

Mark have you ever advised feeding pasta as a separate meal from the other food - this too can produce happy hormones.

If Molly is as fearful as you say, how about Ttouch - I would guess she is too fearful to touch properly at the moment, but a body wrap might well give her some security - even wearing a snug fiting t shirt would help. And Emergency Essence in the drinking water too.

[Top Barks]

Mark have you ever advised feeding pasta as a separate meal from the other food - this too can produce happy hormones.

If Molly is as fearful as you say, how about Ttouch - I would guess she is too fearful to touch properly at the moment, but a body wrap might well give her some security - even wearing a snug fiting t shirt would help. And Emergency Essence in the drinking water too.

Strange you say that penel but just before logging on here I have sent them a copy of the Val Strong diet for aggressive dogs which involves a feeding twice a day with a good quality protein source and supplementing with vitamin B6 and then feeding pasta three hours later.
With regard to the ttouch it was my first suggestion on hearing Molly's story from Tim.
 I took some wands to try and do some touches on her but she could not handle it from me and have suggested to Jo and Tim they use something similar and do circular touches on her body as Molly will tolerate.
As for getting a teeshirt on her or a wrap she would not tolerate getting either item on as she is at the mo and I would not attempt it after seeing her yesterday.
Maybe in time, but Molly is very protective of her own space at the moment and the owners have been bitten putting on the lead.

[Penel]

When I was taming my feral-ist cat, I used Mr Spoon to touch him - a long handled wooden spoon - just gentle strokes with it, no eye contact.  If he bit it, it didn't matter, and because I didn't react, it stalled him and he gradually accepted it.... worth a thought.

[Top Barks]

Already ahead of you penel, I had a prosthetic hand with me yesterday and also suggested using a glove attached to a cane for touching desensitization.
I really do not want Molly to get to a stage where she needs to react though if possible.
Mark

[kb]

Penel I was really interested to read what you were saying about the T-shirt - although I realise it is not suitable atm.

My youngest child has Sensory Integration Dysfunction - now I know dogs are different from people - but one of the difficulites she has is modulating responses to fear, frustration, sensation and so on. One of the hting sthat works for these kids is firm touch/ deep pressure (I am busy trying to find a lap pad for her at present). When she is stressed, she is often calmed by a firm and lasting hug.

Honey is an anxious dog - but obviously not this severe. But I have noticed that she likes firm and definite touch, as opposed to light touch. If I am grooming her for example she becomes very stressed - she will try to get really close to me and she sometimes presses her head quite firmly against me. She did this from the very youngest age and she certainly got comfort from it. She never liked to be walked on a collar - but seemed to love the security of a harness.

I just wonder if dogs can suffer from these sensory anomalies in the same way as humans - I mean I don't see why they wouldn't. It puts children into a constant state of stress, because their systems are overwhelmed - kids with ASD suffer also. It affetcs not only the senses we immediately think of , but the proprioceptive (body awareness) and vestibular as well.

I am maybe talking nonsense - but I just thought what you said was interesting.

[kb]

Ine just read my last post and think perhaps that now you will think I have completely flipped my lid

[Dragon]

a body wrap might well give her some security - even wearing a snug fiting t shirt would help. And Emergency Essence in the drinking water too.

Are you offering to fit it then Penel?

Seriously though, she is too fearful for TouchT therapy at the moment. As Mark found out when trying to touch her with a prosthetic hand

Molly is still wearing the sticky bandage round her leg from Friday's episode at vets. Hopefully she'll tear it off eventually, I'm not going there!

[Penel]

Mark - I thought you'd probably have taken "the  hand" with you  but thought it worthwhile to post about these options in case other people reading about it might find it a helpful tool.
I appreciate of course that this isn't appropriate at the moment for this dog, and I am sure the owners will take their time.
Now for me to suggest something altogether different - have you considered an animal communicator for Molly ?  some I believe really can do it, but of course some can't.... it's finding one who can that's the hard bit.....

Now you'll all think I've flipped my lid and joined kb 

[*Adele*]

I do hope things work out for the best for you all, I really don't have any experience and hope that will remain to be the case but I wanted to wish you luck! It makes me so grateful for how placid Chloe is!

[Top Barks]

Mark - I thought you'd probably have taken "the  hand" with you  but thought it worthwhile to post about these options in case other people reading about it might find it a helpful tool.
I appreciate of course that this isn't appropriate at the moment for this dog, and I am sure the owners will take their time.
Now for me to suggest something altogether different - have you considered an animal communicator for Molly ?  some I believe really can do it, but of course some can't.... it's finding one who can that's the hard bit.....

Now you'll all think I've flipped my lid and joined kb 

Hey penel, anything is worth a go in my book if it can have a positive effect on the dog   I am sceptical but open minded enough to give something like this a go. Some people are conviced by these communicators have you ever used one?

[Penel]

I have yes  - like you I am open to all sorts of things which could help.