Serious advice/opinions needed please

[Bagpuss]

For those of you who haven't read the background to Charlie:

He's a 2½  year old working cocker.  We got him from a friend, who bought he out of a paper for her father, but her father couldn't cope with his boisterousness and gave him back after just two days.  My friend was going to put him in the Trade-It, so we said we'd have him, as we'd talked about getting a dog, and he seemed just perfect.

The reason given by his previous owner for getting rid of him was that she'd become a childminder, and that as she had small children, he'd been shut outside all day.  She felt it wasn't fair on him.

Everything was hunky dory, and we took him to the vets for a check-up.  They scanned his chip and told us that he'd actually had two previous owners, and that the childminder had got him from a dog's home.

Two weeks after we got him, I gave him one of those bones made of hide (I think - they're solid anyway, and go a bit gooey when chewed and last for aaages) - and that was when he first showed signs of possible aggression.  He growled if anyone went so much as in the same room as him, and wouldn't let me take it from him.  In the end, we got his lead and he dropped it, and when he was out, I put it in the bin.

Soon after, I gave him a Kong for the first time, and again, he got really possessive of it and growled if we went near him.   We thought that once he'd been here a while, he'd realise that we weren't going to steal it from him, and he would settle down.

Today, however, he took some chocolate from our daughter.  My husband was in the garden with them at the time, and tried to take it from Charlie - and Charlie snapped at him, and bit him on the wrist, enough to draw blood.

Now, I'm really scared that he'll do it again, or worse, that he'll do it to one of our children, or one of their friends.  In the summer, our garden is literally full of the neighbourhood kids!

I 'phoned our vets for advice, and they suggested that "if you can't cope, why not advertise him as 'free to a good home - suffers from food aggression' and let someone else train him".  I felt awful, as I think three homes in 2½ years is enough for any dog to cope with.  When I said this, the woman said it sounded like I'd already made up my mind.

We made Charlie stay out in the garden after the incident, and when he came in, he was his usual, lovely self.

It's breaking my heart, because I keep asking what would have happened had my husband not been there, and one of the children had been bitten.  I don't feel I can trust him again.

I really don't know what to do.  In most respects, he's such a sweetie, but as a first-time owner, this has really knocked me for six, and I don't know what we should do.  My gut instinct is that we can't keep him, as I'd never forgive myself if something happened to one of the children, but I can't bear the thought of him being PTS.

Forgive the length of this post, but I really need some opinions   

[Boof]

What an ordeal for you all, you obviously love Charlie to bits and want what's best for him and your family.

If you decide you can't keep him please do not place him in free-ads as suggested, as he came from a dog home (I assume that meant rescue) in the past shouldn't he have gone back there to be rehomed as part of a policy?

Have you tried trading treats for toys/kongs, etc?

I really hope someone can give you some advice on his behaviour in general.

Whatever you decide will be the right choice, no one else can judge on your circumstances. 

[Cob-Web]

I think you need to contact a reputable, cocker experienced behaviourist - who will be able to observe his behaviour and help you put together a programme to modify it 

I am a little worried that you ask what would have happened if your OH had not been there  It is not advisable to leave any dog alone with children, no matter how placid the dog and how dog savvy the children. I know many people feel differently about their own dogs, but in the case of a recently "rescued" dog with an unkonwn past and children who are not yet familiar with the rules, then it is really not a good idea. Your children need to learn that they should never approach any dog, not even their own, when it is eating and certainly not take something from their mouths like your OH did 

I would suggest that until you are able to get a 1-2-1 session booked, you invest in some baby gates to keep dog and children firmly separate unless carefully supervised - for the safety of both your children and Charlie.

Resource guarding can be corrected - but it takes time, patience and dedication......

  to your vet - I would seriously consider reporting him to the RCVS for that remark 

[Bagpuss]

I should have said that I wouldn't dream of advertising him in a paper - sorry that wasn't clear.

My husband tried to remove the chocolate because we understood that chocolate was poisonous.  By the time he'd got a treat to trade, the chocolate would have been long gone anyway.

As for stairgates, how practical is that really, so separate our pet from the rest of the family?  He was kept behind a stairgate at his previous home if he wasn't just shut out, and we thought that by doing that, we would just remind him of his previous place.  When my friend picked him up from the woman who sold him, he didn't come with anything apart from a plastic, dirty bed.  No bedding, no toys - not even any food, because the woman claimed she'd 'run out that day'.

Our children are in and out of the house all the time.  We didn't realise we should be separating them - I think that would be difficult, if not impossible.

I'm sorry if I sound irresponsible for not supervising my children with the dog (they're 12 and 9) - it just didn't occur to me that I'd need to.    I know I probably sound like a crap owner, but it's my first time, and it's being a steep learning curve.

[suzysu]

aww Bagpuss dont feel bad (((hug))) ...the fact that you are on here asking for advice shows that you care x

I'm not experienced to help you but am sure there will be others along to give you some advice.... a behaviourist to help you will probably be the way to go 

[Cob-Web]

I didn't mean to imply you were irresponsible, sorry 

The Kennel Club and the Dogs Trust both have excellent sections on their website regarding Dogs and Children:

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/465

http://www.learnwithdogs.co.uk/downloads/staysafepg.pdf

[Joelf]

I 'phoned our vets for advice, and they suggested that "if you can't cope, why not advertise him as 'free to a good home - suffers from food aggression' and let someone else train him".

Charming!! Hardly a helpful remark to make!!

I would also suggest seeking the advice of an experienced behaviourist who can observe Charlie at home & also doesn't sprout a lot of nonsense about 'rage' & 'dominance'!

Jean Donaldson has written an excellent book about guarding called 'Mine' which you can get from Amazon that you may find very helpful.

[Rhona W]

I'm sorry if I sound irresponsible for not supervising my children with the dog (they're 12 and 9) - it just didn't occur to me that I'd need to.    I know I probably sound like a crap owner, but it's my first time, and it's being a steep learning curve.

You do not sound like a crap owner at all. You'd have followed your vet's advice if you were.  My youngest two children are 13 and 9 (last week) and I do not supervise them with our dogs. (Although we have had ours since they were 8 weeks old.) To be honest, ours is a very busy household and I wouldn't have had dogs if I had thought that I would have had to do so. 
I would try to find a good behaviourist to help you and in the mean time, don't give Charlie any chews/kongs etc that he considers to be high value. And I know this one may be difficult, but encourage your children not to eat in front of him so he doesn't get the oppurtunity to steal food. Our children have to eat at the table or else they have a cocker drooling in their laps. 

[cazza]

As you don't know all the back ground to Charlie it will be best to play safe for the time being at least   No you are not a bad owner as you wouldn't be on here asking the questions and for advice if you were  

 I would also suggest as Rachel has to get some 1 2 1 training on resource guarding and they can give you a programme to follow to help correct this but it will take time and patience  

Good luck and keep us informed of how you get on    By the way where abouts are you? As someone on here maybe able to offer you info on a behaviourist in your area  

[Saffaroo]

So sorry you and your family and Charlie are having such a tough time.  I don't have any experience to call upon which may help you, other than I'm sure someone will be along soon who can - there's lots of good advice and experience on this forum - certainly a behaviourist would seem the next logical step.  You obviously want to do all you can in this situation and it is evident that you care very much for your dog.  On a related note, yes, children do have to learn how to treat pets within the family.  My grandchildren recently visited, and whilst they are younger than your children we ensured that they were never alone with Saffy.  She has a lovely temperament, but it is very easy to see how a relatively  'childish' action or movement can upset without meaning to, particularly where food is concerned.  In  the circumstances I do think that using gates would provide a bit of breathing space for all whilst things are sorted out.

I really do hope you can overcome this.  By the way,  I'd find another vet,  remarks like those are downright naive and irresponsible   

best wishes

[happydog]

I know I probably sound like a crap owner, but it's my first time, and it's being a steep learning curve.

You certainly don't sound like a crap owner, you sound like a very responsible and caring owner, or you wouldn't be posting on COL asking for advice. You are also right that for a first time dog owner with what is effectively a rescue dog you are going to go through a steep learning curve over and above those who are lucky enough to have a perfectly well adjusted rescue dog (they do exist-but no dog is perfect) Firstly, hard as it may be at the moment-don't panic. You have not suddenly found yourself with a vicious dog that will attack for no reason. He was guarding something that was of high value to him and growled to warn you. That is perfectly normal (though normally unacceptable to humans) dog behaviour. What you are experiencing is resource guarding which is fairly common in rescue dogs who did not get adequate training as a pup. You can approach this in several ways.  Firstly and most importantly I agree with Rachel that a behaviourist will ultimately be the way to go. Make sure you get a good one who is properly qualified and don't confuse them with a trainer which are different entirely  It will be money well spent. They will observe your interactions and his reaction to you and give advice tailored to you and your family. Secondly get and read a copy of Mine by Jean Donaldson a guide to resource guarding. It will help you to undrestand the way a dog thinks. Thirdly do have a read of other behaviour threads on here, Charlies behaviour is not that unusual. I will try and post some links to threads here in a moment. Until you get this sorted I would advise you to stop giving treats for a while and never try to take food away from your dog.

[Cob-Web]

As for stairgates, how practical is that really, so separate our pet from the rest of the family? 

Stairgates, like crates, are fantastic when used appropriately - not to shut the dog away from the family, but just like crate and playpens, to keep them safe when they are unable to be properly supervised  The also act as an additional line of defence in case a door is left open or when visitors come to stop them being bounced all over 

Just because it was used badly in his last home, doesn't mean you should avoid using one - at the moment it may be essential to to prevent an incident until he learns this behaviour is not acceptable 

[speedyjaney]

As for stairgates, how practical is that really, so separate our pet from the rest of the family? 

Stairgates, like crates, are fantastic when used appropriately - not to shut the dog away from the family, but just like crate and playpens, to keep them safe when they are unable to be properly supervised  The also act as an additional line of defence in case a door is left open or when visitors come to stop them being bounced all over 

Just because it was used badly in his last home, doesn't mean you should avoid using one - at the moment it may be essential to to prevent an incident until he learns this behaviour is not acceptable 

This is sound good advice!

We have a dog gate to stop ours getting into the hallway and to the front door (as our front drive isnt enclosed so if they got out they would be off on an adventure 

We also have door stops and wedges all around the downstairs so we can close the dogs into different rooms when the need arises!

It doesn't mean they are always separated but can be safely when you need them to be like mealtimes!

Congrats on ignoring the vets advice - get a good behavourist to help (where are you as someone may be able to recommend a cocker savvy one!) and Charlie will soon respond to consistent fair training on this issue! 

Janey

[JaspersMum]

Don't feel bad about having a few problems, it sounds like you, like us, have a dog where the background may not have been available in its entirety at the time you took him on.  Jasper, I assumed, had just had the one home as he was only 9 months, it turned out after the breeder he'd had two homes before we had him.  Fortunately his only vice was chewing and digging (and eye surgery)

I do find stair gates invaluable, we have one at bottom of stairs and another in the conservatory so we can isolate them if needed, especially if the children have friends round who need space , my children are 12 and 11yrs, once everyone's in and settled the dogs can be allowed back in.  In the right parts of the house it works very well and everyone gets used to the regime.

I am no expert on behaviour as we've been very lucky with ours so far, but I'd consider a behaviourist, and, if that's the best your vet can suggest, a new vet!

[Tasha]

what a nightmare definitely take the advice on a reputable trainer go to the http://www.apdt.co.uk/ they have a list of trainers that will be able to help you.

If he's come from a rescue centre and the details are still available then why not get in touch with them and ask for some help.  By rights when a dog is rehomed by a rescue organisation he is only an adoptee so officially still belongs to the rescue, even though he has obviously be shunted around a bit if you approach them and explain the situation they might go some way to either providing you with some training for him or helping with the funds to do so locally.  As a worse case senerio they may take him back for rehoming to a suitable family if this situation cannot be resolved.

I definitely feel for you and to be honest if my vet gave me that advice i'd be changing vets