An aggressive cocker, a young daughter and serious concerns....

[JB]

Louie is now 2 and a half and has always had this "side" to him whereby he gets quite aggressive (to varying degrees) when trying to take things from him or making him do things he does not want to do.

He sees my wife as the leader of the house it appears but I bear the brunt of these moments and have many cuts and grazes accross my fingers, knuckles and arms to prove it. Bearing in mind that take him for nearly all of his walks, feed him most days and play with him this is quite difficult to take and upsetting to be honest.

In the early days, he used to snap when I tried to take, for example socks off him (he would run under the bed or table with them), things he perhaps may have stolen from the bin, went near him while he was eating and even snapped if we nudged him off the sofa.

As time went on, we saw a lady a few times at our vet who dealt with behavious problems and certain things improved. She said it looked like he maybe was going to have this possessiveness in him always but the trick would be to avoid these confrontations.

1) Sofa - although he jumps up when we are not around he soons get down when we are back
2) I can now easily take his food away from him while he eats on command and he even looks at me to ask permission to start when I put it down.
3) I can throw his toys for him and he brings them back if I have a treat and begrudgingly drops them. If I do not have a treat, his idea of playing is parading up and down in front of us with a toy in his mouth as if to say "go on, try and take this off me". If anyone moves their hand anywhere near him, he moves his head away, walks off then does it again. He loves the fact that we cannot get it off him so we do not even attempt to take stuff from him (even though I would love to play tug-o-war with him).
4) I can make him sit and wait for however long I want as long as I have a treat in my hand (he always did this perfectly at puppy class).

These are the positive things (they seem positive to me anyway) and the fact that we know what sort of thing makes him turn.

The worst examples are probably as follows:

a) One time he had dragged something out of the bin in the kitchen (something horrible like a few teabags or a nappy bag), I walked in noticed, got a treat and tried to lure him out of the room (if I so much as call him name he growls), he had to really think about whether it was worth coming out for the treat, I placed a treat in a corner of the lounge (far enough away so that I can retrieve rubbish while he is away), he slowly walks past to get to treat and as I walk the other way to retrieve rubbish, he twigged what I was doing and absolutely went berserk. He leapt up and was snapping and snarling leaving holes in my clothes and a couple of cuts on my hands. He really means it when he turns and so I just turn my back and walk away as i know full if I lose my temper and raise my voice to him, he will get even more aggressive.

2) Another was Xmas day morning, there is lots of wrapping paper strewn accross the floor, I am walking around picking it up, I get to the last bit and just I bend down to get it, he decides he wants it and tries to take it. I tell him "no" and try to take it from him, he loses it again and properly clamps his teeth down onto my hand and I have to wait for him to let go to remove my hand. My wife steps in to put him in the kitchen for misbehaving, as soon as her hand goes near him, she gets the same treatment, he was so angry, he had to lifted off the floor and forcibly put in the kitchen. He is literally like a different dog when this happens and a couple of mins later, he is good as gold again (he does act sheepish though as if he knows he has done wrong).

I am sorry if I have rambled on a bit, I am just trying to give some examples of what triggers him and what we have tried. I have also been reading a book called "Mine" recommended on these forums but I agree with what someone else said on another aggression thread, I do find the book very hard to follow and more aimed at dog trainers rather than owners.

We have taken steps to help resolve this by locking him in the kitchen from time to time (particularly when we are eating) to reinforce the fact that he is not in charge, never have any bins/bin liners near him as him with stuff from the bin have caused the worst episodes and I am now examining him every day like a vet would which I have read is good to reinforce the whole "pack order" rule.  I can examine his ears ok, his teeth but as soon as I get to the paws or until his tail, he tries to bite me and/or rolls onto his back mouthing at me.

Anyway, my wife and I can try to resolve this issue (if there is anything else we can do?) but we have a 14 month old daughter. Clearly, she will not have a clue the best way to deal with him (he has not shown any aggresssion toward her thus far, just a couple of tiny grumbles if she is sleeping and she goes and wakes him up). We cannot take the risk of him ever attacking her but so far it is mainly me that he goes for so far. The breeder we bought him from suggested a behaviour specialist but we really do not the money to afford one of these as they are very expensive. Our last resort is of course to rehome him but the idea of this upsets me greatly. People ask me how I feel when he bites me and yes, at the time, of course I am angry but it doesn't make me love him any less.

Can anyone offer any encouragement, advice, anything we have not tried, anything to help us out ? It would be appreciated so much (sorry this post is so long).

[JaspersMum]

Sorry to hear you are having problems.

Since a behaviourist is going to see and therefore be able to advise based on the observations, are you, or should I say, is Louie insured, and would you be able to get a referral that your insurance would pay at lease some of the bill for  ?

Hope you manage to get some answers

[JB]

Sorry to hear you are having problems.

Since a behaviourist is going to see and therefore be able to advise based on the observations, are you, or should I say, is Louie insured, and would you be able to get a referral that your insurance would pay at lease some of the bill for  ?

Hope you manage to get some answers

Yes he is insured. We called MoreThan about 18 months ago and they told us we were not covered. We are now with a different provider and so I will be contacting them this week.

[Jan/Billy]

You know there are parts of your posts that I can relate to soooo much with my cocker Billy.

I have to go out now so can't type a full reply but I will. I do agree a behaviourist is a must

[Cob-Web]

I agree with Jenny - only a behaviourist, who can assess your Louie in his home environment, will be able to advise you; any advie given on a forum will be based on assumption, and may make the situation worse, not better  

If you can, you might find it helpful to find a behaviourist, or even a local dog trainer, who can explain the principles behind positive dog training. Some of the principles you have referred to (being "top dog", "in charge" or "dominance") are quite outdated in modern dog-training; the idea that a dog needs to consider it's owner the "leader of the pack" has been disproven - dogs respond to firm boundaries, applied with an understanding of their behaviour and instincts.

I hope that you are able to resolve your issues with Louie - good luck

[HeatherandBenjy]

Hello

Please don't apologise for the length of your post, its clear that you care about Louie and want to get your relationship right with him, every bit of info helps!

Okay, I'm no behaviourist, and I'm sure that there will be folks with far more experience than me along soon, but here are my initial thoughts (and I do live with a rescue, resource guarding cocker!)

If a dog has a really 'high value' treat... like something they've stolen out of the bin then its going to take something very special for them to exchange it. I understand that with teabags (plastic content) or nappy bags (tasty!) that you need to get them back, my advice would be to offer a higher value treat (cheese works with Archie). Generally though, this is something that is best practiced when there isn't the urgency of having to get whatever Louie has off of him, if its a toy he has and he ignores the treat, well that's no bother.

I would NEVER try to take my dogs food away from them once I've given it to them. My dogs know that they have to wait until I put it down, but once its there, its theirs. By taking it away, I would suggest that you're making Louie more anxious about whether he will get to keep what is his, and therefore make him guard more.

With Archie, I don't tend to play games where I have to get the toy back off him, it just leads to confrontation, so I try to avoid that all together and make sure that interactions are positive. I also give him his space, we know that his bed is his 'special space' once he's there then he's left alone....

..... which leads on to your daughter. You have every right to be concerned, I assume that she is carefully supervised whenever she and Louie are in the same room (I would do this with any dog  )

I hope you don't think I'm criticising, I'm not, I'm just trying to see life from Louie's point of view. I really hope that things improve, please come back at me, ask lots of questions, like I said, there will be lots of support from folks on here. 

[KellyS]

I think you need to get professional/experienced help...and it's not easy for anyone to advise over the internet. By walking away when he attackes you, you are giving him what he wants - he attacks and you go away thus confirming to him who is in charge of the household - to have your dog bite you as you have described things must have gotten pretty bad  

I hope that you can get it sorted out, I don't mean to sound harsh but if you are not in a position to be able to deal with the issues with help,  maybe you would be better to rehome him with someone that can.. for Louie, & your family's sake.

[LisaB]

This sounds very complex and upsetting and I can't advise but do have some questions really.  How are you managing so far with your daughter?  How old is he?  Is he neutered?  Is he crate trained?  Does he have a "bed" in the lving room?  How much exercise does he get per day?  Where did you get him from btw, have you contacted the breeder about whether or not any of his littermates had/have the same issue?

You've probably done this,but making sure the bin is not accessible (ie., kept in a closed cupboard) is important too.

[JennyBee]

Hi your Louie sounds a lot like my last cocker, so I really can sympathise with what you are going through… I don’t have enough experience to advise you, all I can say is I hope you manage to find a solution to his behaviour.  It is horrible having a dog that will attack you.  Like you we didn’t have money to call in a behaviourist in, but there were no children involved (except a teenage me) and we learned to manage his behaviour by making sure we didn’t get into situations that would cause conflict.  But it was not easy, and as you have a child, I really think you should try to get behavioural help.  I hope things work out 

[joanne_v]

I agree with all the previous posts. Really hope your insurer covers you for behavioural help. If they do make sure its a qualified APDT person with experience of spaniels. You sound like you've done well with many aspects of the behaviour but the big worry is what happens when your daughter starts to walk and interact more.... Even with extensive and long term behaviour modificiation the chances are that the dog will always have possessive tendencies. I've got my own rescue cocker who has a similar background and she will always be a madam but we manage her environment to avoid confronations and she has now learnt to trust me and will give most things back without a fuss. I've had 3 foster cockers stay who have been rehomed due to aggression leading from guarding issues and it does take a long time to fix. Please think very carefully about your long term commitment to the dog and your childs safety. Its never a good thing to pass on a 'problem' dog but in my experience parents will always (rightly) put the child first so to be honest if you dont think you can commit to a lifetime of managing the dogs environment then you should seriously consider contacting an experienced rescue organisation who can work on your dogs behaviour and find a suitable experienced home for him to go to. 

I volunteer for the Spaniel Trust who take on spaniels who need a bit of extra help with training/behaviour so if you would like more details or advice on how to help with Louie please do contact me.

Jo

[cdpops]

Hi
I have a dog who was very similar to Louie.
Once I sought help from a behaviourist and followed their plan things improved, BUT I believe once a dog learns that biting works they may always resort to this behaviour, it is about managing their environment to prevent this.
We follow the Learn to Earn program and along with positive clicker training and ignoring bad behaviour, we have seen a dramatic improvement.


I hope you manage to get the right help soon.

[Jan/Billy]

If a dog has a really 'high value' treat... like something they've stolen out of the bin then its going to take something very special for them to exchange it. I understand that with teabags (plastic content) or nappy bags (tasty!) that you need to get them back, my advice would be to offer a higher value treat (cheese works with Archie). Generally though, this is something that is best practiced when there isn't the urgency of having to get whatever Louie has off of him, if its a toy he has and he ignores the treat, well that's no bother.

I would NEVER try to take my dogs food away from them once I've given it to them. My dogs know that they have to wait until I put it down, but once its there, its theirs. By taking it away, I would suggest that you're making Louie more anxious about whether he will get to keep what is his, and therefore make him guard more.

With Archie, I don't tend to play games where I have to get the toy back off him, it just leads to confrontation, so I try to avoid that all together and make sure that interactions are positive. I also give him his space, we know that his bed is his 'special space' once he's there then he's left alone....

..... which leads on to your daughter. You have every right to be concerned, I assume that she is carefully supervised whenever she and Louie are in the same room (I would do this with any dog  )

Completely agree with everything you have written

BUT I believe once a dog learns that biting works they may always resort to this behaviour, it is about managing their environment to prevent this.

Absolutely Claire I totally agree with you. We can go months and months with great behaviour from Billy then one day things can go "wrong" ( for want of a better word) , you just need to be aware that the danger is him biting will always be there.


I'd also like to say that with my own experience with Billy is that sometimes when things go wrong, it's not necessarily anything Billy or I have done wrong, it's just a miss understanding. Try not to let incidents stress you out. If Louie won't swap something one day then fine, it's no big deal, just walk away, maybe he will next time.


With Billy I don't try and be boss, there is no point , it wouldn't work!    He knows the rules, he knows what he has to do to get the things he wants. If on the rare occassions he has a tant and a little strop he gets NOTHING simple as! If he growls ( again it's rare but it does happen) then I walk away and he gets a big fat zilch.

[Top Barks]

Louie is now 2 and a half and has always had this "side" to him whereby he gets quite aggressive (to varying degrees) when trying to take things from him or making him do things he does not want to do.

He sees my wife as the leader of the house it appears but I bear the brunt of these moments and have many cuts and grazes accross my fingers, knuckles and arms to prove it. Bearing in mind that take him for nearly all of his walks, feed him most days and play with him this is quite difficult to take and upsetting to be honest.

In the early days, he used to snap when I tried to take, for example socks off him (he would run under the bed or table with them), things he perhaps may have stolen from the bin, went near him while he was eating and even snapped if we nudged him off the sofa.

As time went on, we saw a lady a few times at our vet who dealt with behavious problems and certain things improved. She said it looked like he maybe was going to have this possessiveness in him always but the trick would be to avoid these confrontations.

1) Sofa - although he jumps up when we are not around he soons get down when we are back
2) I can now easily take his food away from him while he eats on command and he even looks at me to ask permission to start when I put it down.
3) I can throw his toys for him and he brings them back if I have a treat and begrudgingly drops them. If I do not have a treat, his idea of playing is parading up and down in front of us with a toy in his mouth as if to say "go on, try and take this off me". If anyone moves their hand anywhere near him, he moves his head away, walks off then does it again. He loves the fact that we cannot get it off him so we do not even attempt to take stuff from him (even though I would love to play tug-o-war with him).
4) I can make him sit and wait for however long I want as long as I have a treat in my hand (he always did this perfectly at puppy class).

These are the positive things (they seem positive to me anyway) and the fact that we know what sort of thing makes him turn.

The worst examples are probably as follows:

a) One time he had dragged something out of the bin in the kitchen (something horrible like a few teabags or a nappy bag), I walked in noticed, got a treat and tried to lure him out of the room (if I so much as call him name he growls), he had to really think about whether it was worth coming out for the treat, I placed a treat in a corner of the lounge (far enough away so that I can retrieve rubbish while he is away), he slowly walks past to get to treat and as I walk the other way to retrieve rubbish, he twigged what I was doing and absolutely went berserk. He leapt up and was snapping and snarling leaving holes in my clothes and a couple of cuts on my hands. He really means it when he turns and so I just turn my back and walk away as i know full if I lose my temper and raise my voice to him, he will get even more aggressive.

2) Another was Xmas day morning, there is lots of wrapping paper strewn accross the floor, I am walking around picking it up, I get to the last bit and just I bend down to get it, he decides he wants it and tries to take it. I tell him "no" and try to take it from him, he loses it again and properly clamps his teeth down onto my hand and I have to wait for him to let go to remove my hand. My wife steps in to put him in the kitchen for misbehaving, as soon as her hand goes near him, she gets the same treatment, he was so angry, he had to lifted off the floor and forcibly put in the kitchen. He is literally like a different dog when this happens and a couple of mins later, he is good as gold again (he does act sheepish though as if he knows he has done wrong).

I am sorry if I have rambled on a bit, I am just trying to give some examples of what triggers him and what we have tried. I have also been reading a book called "Mine" recommended on these forums but I agree with what someone else said on another aggression thread, I do find the book very hard to follow and more aimed at dog trainers rather than owners.

We have taken steps to help resolve this by locking him in the kitchen from time to time (particularly when we are eating) to reinforce the fact that he is not in charge, never have any bins/bin liners near him as him with stuff from the bin have caused the worst episodes and I am now examining him every day like a vet would which I have read is good to reinforce the whole "pack order" rule.  I can examine his ears ok, his teeth but as soon as I get to the paws or until his tail, he tries to bite me and/or rolls onto his back mouthing at me.

Anyway, my wife and I can try to resolve this issue (if there is anything else we can do?) but we have a 14 month old daughter. Clearly, she will not have a clue the best way to deal with him (he has not shown any aggression toward her thus far, just a couple of tiny grumbles if she is sleeping and she goes and wakes him up). We cannot take the risk of him ever attacking her but so far it is mainly me that he goes for so far. The breeder we bought him from suggested a behaviour specialist but we really do not the money to afford one of these as they are very expensive. Our last resort is of course to re home him but the idea of this upsets me greatly. People ask me how I feel when he bites me and yes, at the time, of course I am angry but it doesn't make me love him any less.

Can anyone offer any encouragement, advice, anything we have not tried, anything to help us out ? It would be appreciated so much (sorry this post is so long).

Sounds like you have a dedicated resource guarder and you do need professional help. I do hope you get your insurance and persue this! it also sounds like you have done some good work on your own already.
The safety of your family should be paramount at all times and if that means re homing the dog responsibly to an organisation where he can be properly assessed then you should consider it as a very definite option.
Owning a dog should be a joy and a pleasure and not  a worry about when a child might be bitten. Idiots like me take on those sort of dogs and do lots of work with them to try and sort them out, but not everyone has the ability, time or patience for this sort of dog. It is rewarding if you can turn them around but it is not everyones cup of tea.
Forget about  him trying to be in charge and pack nonsense, he is not doing this for status over you and confrontation will get you bitten again.  He is resource guarding period! and even if pack theory were relevant (which it isn't) Lower ranking wolves often will guard from the alpha and the alpha will back down and still be the Alpha so it is not always about being the boss.
There is a very apt cocker rule. It says
If I have it, It's mine, If it is yours, its mine. Certainly one of my lot used to be like this and I confronted him and I have the scars to prove it.
Diplomacy and training works much better and I do not need to impose myself or make my dog submit to my will.
Confronting your dog will do nothing to earn his trust and build your bond.
He also has no idea he is doing anything wrong, dogs don't work like that.
I do hope you seek professional advice sooner rather than later from someone who is a member of the APBC or similar.
If any trainer starts spouting pack theory at you, walk away quickly while you still have the toes on your feet to do so.
Mark

[Cockertime Blues]

JB, I didn't find your post long at all because it was so interesting and I could relate to so much of it with regard to our Mollie, though our situation is not serious because we have no children in the house.  (We got Mollie when she was 11 months old and, because of her birthdate and the fact that there were young children in the house, we're sure she was a Christmas puppy who went horribly wrong.  We answered an ad at work where she was touted as "affectionate and well-behaved."  Ha!  We have always regarded her as a rescue because we felt we had to take her out of the situation she was in, i.e., total ignorance of cocker or any dog's needs, no exercise, no discipline, matted coat, going to first person to come along with £100 and no questions asked, etc.)

The bottom line is that we manage Mollie (mostly by accepting her limitations and bribery and corruption) and she has never bitten us (except once she bit my husband when her dew claw got stuck in his wedding ring and she was in serious pain) and she's a million times better than when we first got her, but I would never trust her.  More importantly we have no young children.  We even have a new (to us) dog she is now getting on well with.  There is no shame in rehoming.  Maybe you should at least consider it.  Spaniel Trust are great, and you would know that the new owners would be seriously vetted and matched to your dog.

[Karma]

Some great advice from Top Barks (and others) here...

I'm not going to add any, as I think too many people spouting their interpretations could lead you to more difficulties.  I really hope you are able to get a (good) behaviourist in - while they are costly, they can provide some valuable insight and guidance...

If this really isn't an option, maybe just some training classes, where you can develop your retreive and give commands with some expert supervision (again, make sure they are using positive methods - look for them to be APDT registered).  This might help rebuild some of the trust which is bound to be eroded in your relationship (from both sides).  This is no where near as good as getting a behaviourist in, but might be a short term solution while money can be saved up for the professional advice (I know how daunting this can be, as we were faced with possibly needing a behaviourist, and the costs are very scarey...).

Good luck and I hope you find the right solution for you, your family and for Louie.