An aggressive cocker, a young daughter and serious concerns....

[PennyB]

Just out of interest, the thinking behind hand feeding and handling.....is that not a "reinforcing the pack order" method i.e. suggesting to the dog that i decide how much and when he eats and he needs to be submissive when I check him over.

sometimes these things are about just getting used to being handled and creater a closer bond with you - common sense thinking really

[Han]

Just out of interest, the thinking behind hand feeding and handling.....is that not a "reinforcing the pack order" method i.e. suggesting to the dog that i decide how much and when he eats and he needs to be submissive when I check him over.

sometimes these things are about just getting used to being handled and creater a closer bond with you - common sense thinking really

My understanding is this is just about developing your relationship with the dog - letting him know he can trust you and that your hands do lovely things (ie give him food and treats) rather than do things he doesn't like (take away his precious toys and food; touch him where he doesn't fancy being touched).

[Karma]

Agree - the hand feeding etc is about getting a good bond.

As far as treats, as long as he is earning them, I personally see no problem.  Would you go to work if you didn't know you were going to get paid?    I might be tempted to not give left-overs straight after the trays are cleared away, though, as this might stop him "demanding" them, and so reduce stress on both sides.

[Jan/Billy]

Just out of interest, the thinking behind hand feeding and handling.....is that not a "reinforcing the pack order" method i.e. suggesting to the dog that i decide how much and when he eats and he needs to be submissive when I check him over.

I don't think it does, but then I don't buy the "pack order" theory anyway. Hand feeding helps build a bond between you both, and it also helps him to associate you and your hands with good things.

1) When someone knocks at the door, he almost flies across the room, jumps up on the sofa and sits on the window sill barking and looking who is at the door. I read elsewhere (on the Spaniel Trust website I think) that this is a leadership thing. He is the leader and greeting the intruder before we do.

Again not something I believe. Your house is their home, they associate a "knock at the door" with someone new arriving at their home. They are nosy and are intrigued much more than we are. They get excited about such small things. Billy does the same thing but it's not a problem. I have throws on my settee so he is doing no harm and quite likes to look out of the window. If you don't want him on your sofa then thats fine but rather it be because you don't want him on the sofa than it be anything to do with him trying to be leader.

3) He always pulls on the lead when walking (always has done). We went from a lead to a harness about 18 months ago and the pulling improved momentarily but then went back to pulling shortly after. I have tried different methods, pulling him back saying "heel", having him on a short lead, a long lead and standing still as soon as he pulls but none of them have really helped. Maybe lead pulling is a completely separate issue to his aggression though ?

I'd say him pulling is absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with his agression. Dogs very quickly learn that if they pull then they get to where they want quicker. Once it is learnt it is very hard to stop ( but not impossible!) There are lots of threads on the forum about pulling if you do a search. To be honest I think you have enough on your plate right now, if it was me I wouldn't worry about it right now.

4) On the subject of leftovers, treats - he has leftovers from us every now and again. Should we stop this completely ? He is not overweight but is it another thing we should cut out ? He has a treat every night when he goes to bed - this means that as soon as he comes in from garden, he patiently sits in his bed waiting for the treat before he settles down - is this a bad thing ? He will never ever do what you tell him to without a treat i.e. if I want him to get into his bed in the kitchen so that my daughter can play without him mooching around, he will stand and look at his bed as if to say "why would I want to do that ?". As soon as I go to the treat jar, he is in his bed like a shot waiting for his reward. He should be doing things like this without rewards though, right ?

There is absolutley nothing wrong in dogs having treats. I'd be inclined to be a bit stricter, in that if you ask him to do something if he doesn't do it straight away then I'd walk away and NO treat. Although it may be that he doesn't fully understand whats going on and what is actually expected of him. Clicker training is superb for teaching dogs when they get something "right" I'd definately give this a try. It's fun too!

[Elisa]

1) When someone knocks at the door, he almost flies across the room, jumps up on the sofa and sits on the window sill barking and looking who is at the door. I read elsewhere (on the Spaniel Trust website I think) that this is a leadership thing. He is the leader and greeting the intruder before we do.

I wouldn't say he is trying to be a leader.  Protective maybe of his home and owners, nosey and excited too.

2) He sometimes (not always) when we have finished our dinners (say we are eating off a tray in the lounge), if we do not take the trays out as soon as we have finished, he will start barking as if to demand that we take trays out so that he can see if he has some leftovers. This suggests to me that he is being bossy but I know that others disagree with the whole "pecking order" scenario. Needless to say if he does this, he get nothing.

He is communicating to you that he wants the leftovers.

3) He always pulls on the lead when walking (always has done). We went from a lead to a harness about 18 months ago and the pulling improved momentarily but then went back to pulling shortly after. I have tried different methods, pulling him back saying "heel", having him on a short lead, a long lead and standing still as soon as he pulls but none of them have really helped. Maybe lead pulling is a completely separate issue to his aggression though ?

I've never really mastered this either  and have had to resort to a canny collar (halti type lead). It takes quite a while for the dog to get used to it, but it does give me a lot more control and the pulling has decreased dramatically.

4) On the subject of leftovers, treats - he has leftovers from us every now and again. Should we stop this completely ? He is not overweight but is it another thing we should cut out ? He has a treat every night when he goes to bed - this means that as soon as he comes in from garden, he patiently sits in his bed waiting for the treat before he settles down - is this a bad thing ? He will never ever do what you tell him to without a treat i.e. if I want him to get into his bed in the kitchen so that my daughter can play without him mooching around, he will stand and look at his bed as if to say "why would I want to do that ?". As soon as I go to the treat jar, he is in his bed like a shot waiting for his reward. He should be doing things like this without rewards though, right ?

My dogs sometime have leftovers too.  It's not for everybody, but it's a personal choice.  If my dogs have anything though, they have to wait until they are finished and it is always put into their bowls.

I think most people (certainly on COL) give their dog a treat at bedtime.  Mine would be most put out if they didn't get their bedtime biccie   

Vary the times you give your dog a treat.  Vary the treats.  Sometimes it could be a gravy bone, sometimes a toy.  Sometimes it could be a favourite game, other times it could be a stroke or just a reassuring "good boy".  Wait until he has completed the action before he gets the reward.  When you tell him to go to bed, he has to be in it, before he gets any of the above.  Once he gets used to the different rewards, then start leaving them out, gradually at the odd time.  He will still perform the action because he won't know whether he will get a treat or not.  A reward doesn't always have to mean a treat.

Have you tried clicker training with him?  He sounds as if he would really respond to this, and it is very easy, effective and fun for owner and dog.

You sound like wonderful owners, that have come a long way with your dog.  I applaud your on-going committment, I really do 

[bibathediva]

Alot of what you say he does... my dogs do  and to me most of it is quite normal behaviour 
Barking and rushing to the door is normal to me and if i dont want them to go to the door then i put them behind the stairgate 
waiting for leftovers is normal  some owners allow it some dont .. I have a pushy cocker and yes if she barks at me for anything then she doesnt get it but i dont think she is trying to be the boss ..she is just impatient and she has to learn to be patient 

Both of mine pull...i did train them not to pull which took months  but OH as allowed them to pull and so we are back to square one 
Both mine have a bedtime biccie no reason to stop that but you could ask him to sit/paw/down etc for it so he is working for his treats 
and yes mine have to be rewarded for certain things ...as karma said *would you go to work with no pay*
I would forget about looking at whos boss or who is the pack leader and look at your relationship with your dog as a partnership...where you can both work together towards the same goal 
If you can get a behaviourist then thats even better  as they are as much about seeing what you are doing wrong as well as the dog 

[Sarah.H]

From reading your posts I think you have a very clever dog  .  Re the treat thing I would keep them hidden in your pocket so sometimes he gets something when he's not expecting it, that way he will be less inclined to refuse if there's no treat in sight.

[Top Barks]

It sounds like your dog has you well trained JB!
There is nothing wrong with giving dogs leftovers but if you start this practice your dog will come to expect it as the norm and will ask for such things. Dogs make the association between you eating and them getting scraps and will try their best to makesure you know they expect their tit bit if you don't give it. To get rid of this behaviour (if you don't like it) you have to go through a process known as extinction which means cutting out the tit bits for good and letting your dog kick up the biggest fuss and ignoring it. If you give in at any time you will put the behaviour on what we call a thin schedule of reward. Think of it like a slot machine, you keep feeding in the Pennies and just every now and then before you are about to give up you hit the jackpot.
this gives you the incentive to start feeding the pennies in all over again.
The barking and demanding often gets louder and worse just before the dog gives up (This is known as an extinction burst) and this is where most owners cave in and feed the dog.
The real art to leadership is understanding the dog and what is motivating a behaviour and then dealing with it consistently and fairly in a manner the dog can comprehend.
True leadership is not confrontational, but proactive and bond building.
Now you know I don't believe your dog is trying to take over your house any more than any kids you may  have either.
If your teenage son or daughter started acting up would they be challenging you for the head of the household? No of course not, they would be trying to get away with whatever they could!
Your dog pulls on lead do you allow it? There is no way I would let my dogs pull me anywhere and if that is me being a leader then I guess it is. They are Never allowed to pull me, remember the slot machine scenario, they cannot get their jackpot!
It is the way you achieve what you want that counts.
 Dogs they need boundaries and consistent rules that can be applied but at the same time they need to trust their human will not harm them and try to understand them.
Dogs do something because there is maybe something in it for them or to avoid something they may find unpleasant.
For me it's that simple.

[joanne_v]

Listen to mark, he talks sense! Couldnt have put it any better myself.

[JB]

Just a quick update.

My insurance does not cover behaviour problems.
However, started proper training today.
1) Walked him and kept him on a short lead at all times pulling him close to me whenever he pulled to the side or forwards.
2) Hand fed him by putting handful after handful of his food into his bowl before letting him eat the last handful from my hand. Absolutely fine. He even sat down every time waiting for each handful to be dropped in.
3) Did retrieve session with one of his toys. Although, he he usually drops the toy half way back to me, he understands what he is supposed to do and patiently sits waiting for a treat or a pat when he returns.
4) Brief handling session - I put my special protective gloves on and held a treat in one hand while briefly examing his ears, paws and teeth with the other. Not one grumble or bite (probably because he could see the treat). An improvement.

Good boy Louie!

"You sound like wonderful owners, that have come a long way with your dog.  I applaud your on-going committment, I really do" (Elisa) 


P.S. This comment means a lot to us ^^^^^- thank you !

[cdpops]

Glad to see your sounding so posiitve. I too used to have special gloves (gardening thick ones) but did similar things to you and now don't need them any more.
He looks adorable on your avatar pic.

[KellyS]

Excellent advise from Mark re slot machine - too true!  Sounds like you are making progress - good luck and keep at it.. you will get there

[JB]

A quick note to let you know how we are getting on.

Been doing the hand feeding and handling. Hand feeding is absolutely no problem and he is slowly getting better with the handling. The problem area was when I wanted him to move from sitting to standing so that I could briefly examine his tail/bum area. Me trying to encourage him to stand made him snap and snarl at my hands. The last couple of times I have done this bit it has not been an issue though as he knows he will get a tasty sausage for behaving himself.

However, I got him in from a run over the field the other Sunday and he was quite aggressive when I was trying to pick him up to carry him up for a bath.

The first time I tried to lift him, he snapped at my hand so I had to abort the lift and go and put some protective gloves on while getting a treat ready. He has always had a problem about me picking him up but I am afraid I have to if he is muddy. The next two times, he would come over, eat the treat, while he was eating it, I would pick him up but he would snap and snarl so much I had to put him down again. Each time he would trot under the table (to hide), see I had another treat, I would lift him, he would snap at my hand/arm so i had to put him down. In the end, I just had to grin and bare it, put up with it, lift him (while telling him NO) and then take him upstairs. The silly thing is, once I put him in the bath to get the shower on him, he could not be any more meek and submissive if he tried. He paces up and down whimpering like a right little baby.

He knows full well that I am wary of him after the amount of run ins we have had and because of this i find it quite difficult to just do what I want to do with him without hesitating but if I did, things would probably work better.

Anyway, tried exact the same situation Sunday just gone but did it actually in the porch so he could not run off anywhere. He grumbled and snapped a little as I lifted him but once I had him, it was ok.

We will get there (hopefully).....

[JennyBee]

I’m glad you have made some improvement with Louie .  I think it would maybe be best to try to avoid all areas of confrontation with him, you really don’t want to get to a point where he bites you… with Barney (who was much, much worse than Louie ) when he got dirty, I would run a hose from the kitchen sink out to the garden where I could clean him quite easily with warm water - I don’t know if this is possible for you?  I hope things continue to improve

[KellyS]

Just wondered if you have had him checked over by a vet just to rule out any health reason he may feel uncomfortable being picked up eg back or hip problems? Has he never liked being picked up from a pup or has this behaviour just started If it's necessary for you to pick him up, you could try gently wrapping him up in a big towel, he might be more tolerant or at least feel a bit safer.