Is guarding behaviour prevalent in cockers and if so, why?

[Archie bean]

I doubt that any two guarding cases are alike. That's why it's such a difficult issue. It's easy to assume that the problem is the fault of bad training or treatment when a dog is young and I'm sure some cases develop because of abuse. In Archie's case though it is definately a character he was born with. I have trained all my dogs to drop and leave from a very early age. I encourage retrieving as a fun game. My approach to training Archie was no different but his first guarding incident occurred when he was about 12 weeks old. It came totally out of the blue while I was lighting the fire. He viciously launched himself at me as I put my hand in the kindling basket. He then sat next to it growling. He never guards food and thanks to a lot of hard work I can now get him to give up forbidden items 90% of the time. There is no pattern to items he chooses to guard and it is this unpredictability that makes it so hard. Very often people can be quite blunt in telling me where I've gone wrong or tell me to rehome him (or in one case have him PTS). This is particularly upsetting if these people have little or no experience of the problem. The "my dog ALWAYS let's me take things away from him" kind of comment is one I have learned to ignore but it really used to get to me because I was convinced I had done something seriously wrong when He was a pup.

[Jonnydog]

One thing I have noticed about cockers I've seen with very bad guarding behaviours (extreme end) is that they guard and/or acquire stuff the more stressed they become

This resonates with me. Jonny is a springer and we've had a guarding issue with him in very specific circumstances - when he's all adrenalined up as soon as a walk is hinted at (it only needs to be my body language!). He goes to grab the nearest toy and I've never found a way to get him to drop it other than not allowing him to get into the car ( or go through the gate) until he leaves it. We've had many a battle of wills over this and I've been bitten twice in the past trying to take a toy off him.

One of his favourite games used to be to bring a toy to me, drop it, then grab for it before I can get it. He devised this game and trained me to it! It just shows how an innocent game with a pup can become a battle of wills under a stress situation, and how careful you have to be with what behaviours you encourage.

Needless to say I learned from this failure and was careful not to let it happen with Penny.

[Lovely]

In response to archie bean, i really hope you don't feel my initial question or subsequent comments are about your case specifically, it's a question that has arisen after reading multiple posts about this issue. Like i said i'm definitely no expert! Aggressive tendencies in labs have definitely got worse in field trial lines, because the desired trait is a dog that will go through anything, is brave and will face any obstacle. These dogs do not make good pets in my opinion and are a completely different kettle of fish to pet lines. However the aggression i have seen in the working labs has tended to be dog on dog rather than towards humans. Having said all of that, the two occasions i have been bitten it has been by a lab. I was told by the dr treating me that they collate stats from bites and the most common dog to bite is the lab! But this could be because there are so many labs. It's a complex issue and that's why it's good to hear everyone's experience.

[Karma]

OK being brutally honest here from what I've seen on the boards in the last 7 years.

I think *generally* they are a breed with guarding tendencies - I have no idea why but it seems to be one of the biggest reasons why cockers are re-homed, and one of the most posted about topics on the behaviour board.  

I have a tendency to agree - I think part of it comes down to the Cocker's tendency to pick up things.... where this is misunderstood by new owners it can contribute to guarding behaviour.

I've often thought this as well with a tendency for some owners to grab stuff back off them thus the dog equally wants 'their' stuff back even more!

That was definately what I was getting at...  

Honey is more of a guarder to other dogs, but I can see character traits in her that could easily escalate into guarding to humans if she had been handled differently.  I suspect there are a lot of dogs out there in a similar position - and the advice of some dog "experts" to take things away all the time (without clarifying HOW - ie gently, making sure they are comfortable doing to, praise, returning, swapping etc) - likewise people pulling dogs off a sofa rather than training them to get off - can easily trigger this character tendency  into problem guarding.  There are also undoubtedly some dogs, like Archie, who are just prone to guarding by character without needing that "trigger"... and, I expect, these are the dogs who are more likely to guard random things like spaces - and I doubt this character trait is more common in Cockers (though I'm only guessing on that, as I have nothing to support it!).  Perhaps this is a combination of breeding issues and modern day life stresses on dogs at play.    At puppy classes I have seen owners create guarding issues in their handling of their pups - and despite warnings at the beginning of the course that what they are doing could cause problems, they've continued and, by the end of the course, are asking how to solve the problem they've created...    - and that isn't limited to Cockers.  

I guess the only real way to know if problem guarding is more of an issue would be to ask a wide range of behaviourists whether they see one breed more than another - and then compare this with the popularity of that breed...

I would say, Honey has always had her one special toy, that she seeks out to greet people with - she's never guarded it, but it is a definate favourite that I wouldn't dream of taking off her... it's something that gives her security and comfort.

[JeffD]

I doubt that any two guarding cases are alike. That's why it's such a difficult issue. It's easy to assume that the problem is the fault of bad training or treatment when a dog is young and I'm sure some cases develop because of abuse. In Archie's case though it is definately a character he was born with. I have trained all my dogs to drop and leave from a very early age. I encourage retrieving as a fun game. My approach to training Archie was no different but his first guarding incident occurred when he was about 12 weeks old. It came totally out of the blue while I was lighting the fire. He viciously launched himself at me as I put my hand in the kindling basket. He then sat next to it growling. He never guards food and thanks to a lot of hard work I can now get him to give up forbidden items 90% of the time. There is no pattern to items he chooses to guard and it is this unpredictability that makes it so hard. Very often people can be quite blunt in telling me where I've gone wrong or tell me to rehome him (or in one case have him PTS). This is particularly upsetting if these people have little or no experience of the problem. The "my dog ALWAYS let's me take things away from him" kind of comment is one I have learned to ignore but it really used to get to me because I was convinced I had done something seriously wrong when He was a pup.

I have  looked back at your previous posts I am sure its nothing you have done, dogs just like us are born with different characters. What I really admire is your character for sticking with Archie.

[Jenz]

I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if I'm repeating things said already. 

I have had 3 cockers in my family prior to getting Jenson, it was some time ago but none of them ever guarded anything.  Unfortunately Jenson does resource guard. 

I have posted about it here because I like seeking advice from those who know the breed.  Its the single most worrying thing I have about my dog as he will guard any high end food e.g. dog biscuits, gravy bones, bones are very bad and we have banned them from the house because of this, and he also guards his bed.   Its most worrying because I have a 4 year old son who is very good with him, and we have explained at length why he must never take anything from Jenson's mouth or disturb him in his bed there is still a constant worry in my mind about it.  I never leave them alone together to the best of my ability (not that easy with a stubborn 4 year old let me tell you!).

The comment someone else made about this perhaps being a new issue with the breed has made me wonder about it becoming more prevalent in the breed.

[Lovely]

I'm worried that i'm coming across as a hard hearted dog- beating owner! I'm not at all like this, Lovely and Spud are my beloved pets and are spoiled! Maybe having so much to do with working gun dogs makes me sound harsh but trust me when joe who was a rescue lab had to be pts me and my ex were in bits, and joe had bitten me badly in the past. I'm not at all saying that guarding behaviour can't be treated. I do however worry that the baby has been thrown out with the bath water in dog training, sometimes the message seems to be that you can never tell a dog off, only give positive reinforcement. As has already been said, all dogs are different, some need a firmer hand than others.

[Helen]

Archie Bean - I'm not at all suggesting that it is bad training or lack of trying - I know how hard everyone tries on this forum with their dogs 

[Karma]

I'm worried that i'm coming across as a hard hearted dog- beating owner! I'm not at all like this, Lovely and Spud are my beloved pets and are spoiled! Maybe having so much to do with working gun dogs makes me sound harsh but trust me when joe who was a rescue lab had to be pts me and my ex were in bits, and joe had bitten me badly in the past. I'm not at all saying that guarding behaviour can't be treated. I do however worry that the baby has been thrown out with the bath water in dog training, sometimes the message seems to be that you can never tell a dog off, only give positive reinforcement. As has already been said, all dogs are different, some need a firmer hand than others.

I don't think you come across as a hard-hearted dog-beating owner!    I think there is a difference between a particular toy that a dog is attached to which gives comfort and reassurance, and a particular toy that a dog is obsessed about.... If we could possibly have stopped all balls with Honey, I would have done - they were a constant source of stress for her and she was guarding them from us, though it hadn't escalated into problem guarding.  Unfortunately, she is a ball-seeking machine, and finds balls on any walk where we don't take our own.... so we had to work the hard way - we still can't have balls in the house (though she has coped with a couple of obviously children's balls, which I never dreamed she would be able to!) but she can now enjoy a ball on walk! 

I think the risk with guarding behaviour is to assume it is caused by x,y,z - it is often a product of fear, but the cause of that fear is a very complicated issue... unfortunately a lot of people suggest a dog who is guarding needs to be "put in their place" whereas, in reality, they need very careful and gentle handling so that trust can be (re-)established. 

[8 Hairy Feet]

Karma
I love to read your posts,
Always well balanced, sensible
and informative.
Sorry gone a bit off topic there!
steffxxx

[JeffD]

Well a very unscientific 30 min internet search and I don't think cockers are more prone to this than other breeds, Jack Russles seem to be at the top going by posts on Google, but Labs, Springer's, Poodles, Dobermans ( breeds that I looked at ) owners all have this problem. Top 3 most popular dogs in UK are  Lab, Cocker and in 3rd place Springer so I guess you will get more posts with these breeds.

[Nicola]

It would be interesting to see if the problem is greater with show cockers or working bred working cockers.  I know from the conversations I've had with Nicola about Hearing dogs that it appears more prevalent with the show cockers at Hearing dogs but this could be different here.

Yes it's much more prevalent in the show types. I don't think it's a breed specific trait at all, it can and does occur in any breed of dog, but over the last 30 years here it has been evident that Cockers (particularly show Cockers) are very prone to having/developing this issue, more so than most of the other breeds we've had. It's by no means all of them or we wouldn't still have Cockers as one of the now only 6 breeds/crosses we breed/source and train, but it's something we're very aware of with the breed. Most of the breeds we've had have a tendency towards something or other - aversion to car travel/travel sickness in the Golden Retrievers for example (again not all of them by any means, but a high proportion).

We are now though seeing much less of it in the Cockers we're breeding ourselves as we've been extremely careful in selecting our breeding stock. Any sign of possession will rule a dog out from being selected as a breeding dog; and while problems can still be caused by environment/handling, we're now with very few exceptions producing dogs with the qualities we need and solid enough temperaments that the issue is now very seldom occuring in our own-bred dogs.

[Archie bean]

I think the risk with guarding behaviour is to assume it is caused by x,y,z - it is often a product of fear, but the cause of that fear is a very complicated issue... unfortunately a lot of people suggest a dog who is guarding needs to be "put in their place" whereas, in reality, they need very careful and gentle handling so that trust can be (re-)established. 

That is so true in Archie's case.

Sorry if my previous posts have come across as getting at anyone on here. That's not the case, I've had nothing but support and good advice. It's non doggy friends and pupil parents who I've had the negatives from. Lovely, I didn't think you were referring to Archie and me specifically and even if you were its a great thread so I would have been happy that his behaviour inspired it  I just have some experience of it so I thought I would post about what I've learned so far. 

[Jane S]

We are now though seeing much less of it in the Cockers we're breeding ourselves as we've been extremely careful in selecting our breeding stock. Any sign of possession will rule a dog out from being selected as a breeding dog; and while problems can still be caused by environment/handling, we're now with very few exceptions producing dogs with the qualities we need and solid enough temperaments that the issue is now very seldom occuring in our own-bred dogs.

That seems to back up the theory that it's genetic in some lines since Hearing Dogs have bred away from the problem successfully. I also wouldn't breed from any dog displaying this kind of behaviour but it's easy to see how the trait could become more widespread if, for example, a well-known and well-used stud dog had this trait (even if it was in the past) as popular stud dogs can produce hundreds of progeny who may also go on to be bred from and so the cycle continues. It would be interesting to study the pedigrees of Cockers with severe guarding behaviour to see if there were any obvious common ancestors....

[JeffandAnnie]

As has already been said, all dogs are different, some need a firmer hand than others.

Perhaps you should read this thread  http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=99682.0