CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Feeding => Topic started by: Naughty Pair on October 30, 2006, 10:31:48 AM
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Hi All,
After having posted a thread re my 7 month old being ill - ie sickness and the runs. I have decided that I will start the BARF diet this coming weekend - for both of cockers. I am hoping Teri will pick up and that their eyes will not be as weepy and they may stop scratching. They currently eat nature diet but teri does not like it - so vet suggested the prescription bland diet.
I will add slippery elm powder for teris sensitive stomach. Any other powders I should add for nutrients. Will draw up a menu for a week for them - anyone got a good BARF, simple menu for one week that I could steal??
Have read the Barf threads on here before - and they are great very informative!
Any further advice - gratfully received!!
Thanks,
Jane
ps found a dog walker now for £15 pounds a day she collect and drops them off and keeps them for 4 hours .........am very happy :D
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I have startd Sam on BARF just this weekend. I started off by buying a bag of natures menu chicken, tripe, heart and veg from PAH just to see if he would like the idea and now he is on his third day.
I have never known him bark for his food before, he's never really been interested. I've been adding extra veg to the frozen mix as there doesn't seem to be much veg in it....he has been polishing his bowl. I also gave him an egg yesterday which he polished off quite quickly too. In another day or two I'm going to try a chicken wing eek!!
If you read the BARF diary thread in the health section of the foum that should give you some ideas, that's what I've been doing.
There seems to be a few new BARFers on the forum at the moment which is good because we can all share our ideas. ;)
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Great - glad it is going well for you! Its a bit nerve wracking.
Have looked at the diary thread - so much info!!
Will you get your meat from a petshop, butcher or supermarket - if from the supermarket will you get the value stuff?
Im prob going to do a supermarket/butcher run on sat...
You adding any supplements?
Am looking forward to this!
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also do you give the shell to them with the egg?
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also do you give the shell to them with the egg?
Yes. Mine won't eat them whole (but others do), so I crush the shell and mix it into their sardines and pilchards.
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Jane
My dog Paddy has a sensitive tum (recurrent colitis, no parasitic or bacterial cause, just a predisposition) and is on BARF. I'd suggest that you start your dogs on lamb as a homeopathic vet has told another COL poster (SarahP) whose dog has colitis that lamb is better than chicken or beef - I think it's less likely to cause any kind of inflammatory/sensitivity type reaction.
You're looking to feed about 3% of your dog's body weight per day.
A simple menu would be lamb mince, with the slippery elm stirred in, plus a dessertspoon (max) of blended raw veg stirred into the mince too for one meal, plus breast of lamb bones for the other meal. Then add in (either as a meal on its own or bits added to the mince daily) some organ meat. Paddy hates liver and kidney - picks the bits out of his bowl - but loves lamb's hearts. I use one heart per week, divided over the week and mixed into his lamb mince daily.
I do a "mixed meal" of mince, veg, heart plus Keeper's Mix (from Dorwest Herbs -a kelp-based mixed powder for vitaming/mineral) which I bag up and freeze so each bag is one meal, then I bag up meal-portions of breast of lamb and freeze. Any excess blended raw veg mix, I pop into ice cube trays.
If I forget to thaw something, or else once a week, I give him sardines or mackerel in tomato sauce plus a raw egg on top.
If you want to supplement fish oil, get a capsule and pierce it and put the oil into the mince too.
Am I right that one of your dogs had c. bacter? If so - the lamb is an even better idea.
Of a morning, Paddy gets one of the pre-mixed bags of mince/veg/heart plus I add in freshly the Keeper's Mix.
Hope that helps - good luck and keep us posted.
Denise
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I'm starting mine on BARF on Wednesday. Until Saturday I'm feeding them the frozen BARF blocks from PAH. Then I'm switching to this menu, which Rhona W has kindly helped me with. :angel:
I'll be feeding twice a day.
8 meals of raw meaty bones - Chicken Wings and Lamb Ribs
3 meals of mince (from PAH for the time being as its got ground bone in, though may be ok to switch to normal mince later) and whizzed up veg
2 meals of offal and whizzed up veg
1 meal of sardine/pilchards and egg
It depends on how much they weigh to how much they get. I've got three of all different weights, so it was a bit complicated at first but Rhona got my head straight. I know that alot of people don't bother working out weight to food ratio and go on how their dogs are looking. If they too thin they get more, if they are too fat they get less. As a beginner I had no idea how much to feed so I did work it out and I'm feeding 3% of their body weight and I'll adjust as needed.
I'll give you an example (that Rhona helped me with again :angel: ) of what Barney will get fed.
He weighs 13kg so he's getting 390g (but 400g is much easier to work with so I probably will! ;) )
Two meals of 195g
195gs of chicken wings/lamb ribs.
195gms of mince and veg. - made up of approx. 160gms mince, 40gms of veg.
Once or twice a week use 160g of offal instead of mince.
And once a week give sardines or pilchards (or both) and with an egg.
And once a week give a bone meal for tea as well as breakfast.
Hope this helps. I know I found it all a bit confusing when reading the books, websites and posts on here where everything was saying slightly different things. But I'm really happy with that menu so I'm taking the plunge at the weekend.
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Just seen the extra questions - during the better weather I gave Paddy the shell but it's so messy now in the house - bits of egg shell secreted in odd places that I just break the egg into his bowl.
Source of meat/bones: I haven't tried the pet-grade mince although there are positive reports on here from people who use them. I just decided to use human grade meat and bones - from butcher and Tesco. I don't use the "Value" type meat because the fat content was too high and I didn't want to set Paddy's tummy off again.
With the veg - it's counter-intuitive to us, but dogs need no cereals and vey little carbohydrates from veg either - so a dessertspoon of mixed veg seems to be at the upper end of what they need. Some dogs will happily munch more veg - I haven't chanced it, again because of the colitis - wasn't sure if it would trigger too much/softer pooing....
Denise
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I don't use the "Value" type meat because the fat content was too high and I didn't want to set Paddy's tummy off again.
Denise
I never thought of looking at the fat content. Do you think it matters to dogs without stomach problems? :-\ I have used supermarket and pet shop mince.
The bones, chicken wings and offal (ox kidney, lambs heart and liver) I get from a local butchers. They are much cheaper than the supermarket and will usually give me the bones for free.
I was told to add a 'dollop' of veg to 100gms of mince :005: which worked out to be about 20gms. (It depended on how fed up I was getting towards the end of bagging it all up. ::) )
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I'm going to go to my local butcher today, what bones should I actually be asking for?
Think I've given Sam too much veg by adding a bit to the ready made stuff....poo was a bit soft this morning.
Also, excuse my ignorance, but what is bone meal and where do I buy it?
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Kate
Bone meal is basically ground bones: it gives the dog the nutrition (mainly minerals) from the bones, but not the teeth cleaning or the jaw exercise and salivation which crunching the bones provides, so it's better than no bone content but not as good as bones "as is".
Bones to ask your butcher for - breast of lamb (contains lamb ribs), turkey necks, chicken backs ( you get the rib cage and spine, with some meat and flesh, plus bits of organs still attached), chicken wings, oxtail, beef leg bones and beef knuckle (still haven't been able to get these!).
I'm sure others will post their favourites soon!
Rhona - I recall Penel (I think) or ClaireP advising to trim off excess fat from e.g. breast of lamb, as too much fat can give any dog slight diarrhoea. If you think of the rabbit as the feeding model, there aren't too many fat rabbits waddling round in the wild, so most of their intake would be lean meat, with the greatest concentrations of fats coming from the organs as EFA's.
Denise
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Sam has just eaten his first chicken wing and he seems fine. I put it in his bowl so he took it out and started licking it, then he took it outside and found a corner to eat it. I kept checking on him and he was just munching away. I've been out and had a look where he was sitting with it and there isn't a bone in sight...phew!!
Where can I buy bone meal from?? Surely it's not the gardening stuff :-\
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Bones to ask your butcher for - breast of lamb (contains lamb ribs),
I just ask for the rib cage as opposed to breast of lamb. I used breast the first time, but there wasn't much bone content in it. The dogs tended to swallow it down in whole strips as there was nothing to crunch. And then Reuben was sick afterwards. Or regurgitated it. :-\
I found it was also a lot more expensive than ribs, which I can usually get free.
(Penel posted a photo of the lamb ribs she uses on the "Barf Again And I'm Not Sorry" thread which was useful as I knew what I was after when I went to the butchers.)
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Who wants to feed bonemeal and why ? no definitely do not use the gardening stuff..... the Prize Choice mince contains ground bone so you really shouldn't need to add bonemeal to anything.
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thanks for all the advice - i will try the lamb diet for both my dogs. annie can have some chicken as she is not so sensitive as teri
am prob going to go to the butcher and start from there.......gave annie a carrot tonight and she liked it....its just the beginning! ;)
do you think i should start the barf diet on sunday. once teri has finshed her antibiotics and prescription diet.....do you think the barf diet will be ok for her????? given her runny poos (bit harder now) and sickness (she was a bit sick today). she is not as lethargic now but she never seems as happy as annie...
let me know if you are doing a gradual intro or straight away...
thanks!
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Ok, so I don't need to use bone meal. I saw it mentioned somewhere and wondered if I needed to give it Sam. We have just started BARF and it's going really well. He had his first chicken wing last night and there wasn't a bone left.
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I just switched Paddy - no intro or any gradual transition. Morning he ate Chappie, afternoon he was on BARF. God I hated hated hated Chappie...
Denise
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hi - am sitting here working out the Barf amounts - about to go to the butcher.
Teri is 7kg - 7mths
Annie is 13kg - 16mths
Am going to feed Teri 8% of her body weight - 3 times daily as she is sick and underweight i think....is this ok???
Annie will be given 5% of her body weight.
will start on a lamb diet for teri and lamb and chicken for annie.
some yoghurt for teris stomach.
will add cod liver oil - should i add any other omega 6 and 3????? also have bought a slippry elm powder for teri stomach.
so anything else i need to do???
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hi - am sitting here working out the Barf amounts - about to go to the butcher.
Teri is 7kg - 7mths
Annie is 13kg - 16mths
Am going to feed Teri 8% of her body weight - 3 times daily as she is sick and underweight i think....is this ok???
Annie will be given 5% of her body weight.
:huh: That seems an awful lot of food :o . You could well be overloading your poor dogs' digestive systems feeding that amount. Pups only have tiny stomachs! The guidelines are 3% of bodyweight/day (or 20% spread over the week)of raw meaty bones with veggies as extra. If you want Teri to put on weight then try feeding tripe for a few meals in a week. Fern is just under 12Kg and I am feeding her up but only 350-400g/day.
Based on 3% Teri should be getting about 210g/day split into however many meals you currently feed and Annie about 390g/day.
will add cod liver oil - should i add any other omega 6 and 3????? also have bought a slippry elm powder for teri stomach.
Don't forget that for balance dogs actually need a little raw fat in their diet. It reduces the need for supplements such as omega-6. Omega 3 and 6 are present in raw meat,eggs and fish, so if you are feeding a wide variety of good quality raw foods, in theory you shouldn't really need to add any supplements at all.
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Well my boys weigh about 13 1/2 kg and 15 1/2 kg and I feed them between 500 and 600 gms a day. :D
I know this is way over what everyone else feeds, but it does tally with the amount suggested in The BARF Diet.
I did try feeding them less, but Reuben lost weight. :-\ And he doesn't have any weight to lose really. They have been having this amount for 2 months and are doing very nicely on it. Reuben has finally filled out and Casper has just maintained his size.
Obviously, if they do start to look fat I will reduce the amount they have. But for now it works for us. :D
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Well my boys weigh about 13 1/2 kg and 15 1/2 kg and I feed them between 500 and 600 gms a day. :D
I know this is way over what everyone else feeds, but it does tally with the amount suggested in The BARF Diet.
I did try feeding them less, but Reuben lost weight. :-\ And he doesn't have any weight to lose really. They have been having this amount for 2 months and are doing very nicely on it. Reuben has finally filled out and Casper has just maintained his size.
Obviously, if they do start to look fat I will reduce the amount they have. But for now it works for us. :D
That's fine Rhona. I am feeding over the 3% too but its only about 3.4% over (veggies extra and the odd chicken wing on top too). You are only feeding about 4%, - but Naughty Pair is suggesting feeding a 7Kg 7 month old dog 560g/day and I think this is waaay too much for such a little thing. It's nearly 3x as much. That is the equivalent of you feeding your pair about 1,200g each per day
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ok thanks for this - just means i have bagged up the next weeks food as well, seeing as i have done too much!!!
it will now workout that i feed them 4 %. I read the barf book and it suggested puppies have between 5-8% - and i thought as teri looks so skinny give her 8%
4% - this is a bone (chicken or lamb) in the morning and then minced lamb, veg and liver in the evening (and lunch for Teri).
Have just given them their first lamb bone and teri loves it! (although she growls if Annie goes anywhere near her with it) Annie ate the meat off the bone but has left the bone???
It cost me £10 pounds for minced lamb, offal, lamb bones from a really good butcher nearby - this will last a week and a bit at least! very cheap for 2 dogs feeding!! I have wizzed up broc, cauliflower and curly Kale for the veg.
Can you give them fresh sardines - we have loads in are freezer but havent ate them as they are so bony and w dont really like the heads!! ;) will they be ok for the dogs? with an egg?
thanks for ur hep everyone!
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Hi,
I started feeding my 3 cockers a raw diet last year about this time, very gingerly at first with mainly chicken wings, and salmon trimmings from our local morrisons store. I started to add in minced tripe and heart and also gave them lots fo yogurt, crushed fruit and veg and cottage cheese. I also joined a couple of on-line groups and bought a couple of books as well as doing a fair bit of research on-line too. I have or should i say my 3 dogglies have now settled into the kind of diet suggested by Tom Lonsdale of "Raw Meaty Bones" and my guys are in great shape.
Remeber that puppies grown on any raw feeding regime tend to grow at a much slower rate than kibble fed dogs which I and many others belive is so much better for the development of their joints.
Rosie 11months old will tonight enjoy 2 or 3 chicken carcasses, buddy my 7year old will be restricted to 2 as he's on a reducing diet right now and teal who is allergic to chicken will have a large turkey neck.
typically through the week they have a variet of things from large chunks of whole green tripe, 3/4 to 1/2 an ox heart with a couple or 3 chicken wings thrown in, they get a whole egg 3 times a week each, they get 1/4 of a lamb rib cage or pork ribs another night. I also use tinned tuna in sunflower oil and a great favourite just now is pilchards or sardines in tomato sauce. in addition to this they get table scraps, except of course white potatoe or onion and the odd splash of goats milk as a treat.
I can honestly say my dogs have beautiful clean teeth and have never been healthier.
I am no expert but can see my dogglies enjoying the benefits.
Go for it and good luck
Linda Buddy Teal and Rosie;o))
try www.rawmeatybones.com or britbarf@yahoogroups.com
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Crikey I have no idea what mine eat in weight. I do know that Gracie (lurcher) weighs the same as Tilly and Hattie - and yet she eats about twice as much.... ::) they are all different - just like we are all different. :D
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Crikey I have no idea what mine eat in weight. I do know that Gracie (lurcher) weighs the same as Tilly and Hattie - and yet she eats about twice as much.... ::) they are all different - just like we are all different. :D
When you first started feeding raw, how did you work out how much to give them Penel?
Like you, I don't weigh Molo's food portions - I gauge it by appearance and watching his weight gain/loss, but when I first began, I had no idea how much to give, and the guidance in the books/websites was invaluable to give me a starting point ::) If I had given him too much (very likely as the portions are quite small) and he had got sick/squitty as a result, it could have put me off raw feeding for life :-\
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can i give fresh sardines with head and bones?
probably a tupid q!
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Crikey I have no idea what mine eat in weight. I do know that Gracie (lurcher) weighs the same as Tilly and Hattie - and yet she eats about twice as much.... ::) they are all different - just like we are all different. :D
I don't have a clue what mine eat in weight either, Bailey's meal sizes will vary depending on the excersize he has, in France he was eating a whole chicken a day sometimes he did so much walking!
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Hmm what can I say - I just used my common sense ;) same way as if we had a child here to tea, I'd kind of know how much to feed them.
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can i give fresh sardines with head and bones?
probably a tupid q!
Not stupid, I asked the same question a few weeks ago. The answer from the oracle was "yes".
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Thanks annette. :D
Will get defrosting the sardines then!
They are loving the BARF diet at the moment.
Hope everyone else that recently converted is getting on ok.
Thanks to everyone for the advice ;)
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if we had a child here to tea, I'd kind of know how much to feed them.
Would you? I'd weigh them first! :005:
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Crikey I have no idea what mine eat in weight. I do know that Gracie (lurcher) weighs the same as Tilly and Hattie - and yet she eats about twice as much.... ::) they are all different - just like we are all different. :D
I have absolutely no idea either. A good hint for me is that Ruby will bury her food in the garden if I've given her too much. When she does that it makes me stop and think, yes, perhaps her meals have been a little on the large side lately. And sometimes she doesn't get an evening meal. If she's snoozing all evening and doesn't 'ask' then I don't bother...I just give her a bigger breakfast in the morning.
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to change the subject slightly...annie wont eat the actual bones - this morning she just walked away from her fresh chicken wing??
meanwhile teri would eat me if she could!
has anyone else had problems woth their cocker not eating the bones??
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I ran out of bones on Friday, so Paddy had Friday and Saturday with mince, veg and some lamb's heart chopped upinto his food - i.e. everything except the breast of lamb bones he normally gets. Butcher didn't have anything suitable. Grrrr. >:D
Yesterday - got him some lamb bones (bigger and harder than his normal breast of lamb, but nothing he can't handle - large chops from the Tesco freezer section). Wouldn't touch them. Tried him with some oxtail (first beef he's been near for weeks but I was curious about his reaction) - wouldn't even eat the beefy outer bits. Licked, looked, walked away and didn't return....
Then he scooted for the first time ever (that I can recall)...only did it once but of course, am paranoid that he's now got anal gland problems from lack of bones and continuing (like Annie) to refuse bones will make it worse. I think he's heading for another episode...so it may be off to see Mark anyway very soon....
So yup - my dog refuses his bones too.....
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You could try bashing the bones - softer ones like chicken bones - into smaller more manageable pieces.
Then he scooted for the first time ever (that I can recall)...only did it once but of course, am paranoid that he's now got anal gland problems from lack of bones and continuing (like Annie) to refuse bones will make it worse.
Can Paddy eat raw egg? Even if the answer's no, you could still give him just the shell, that will firm things up. So much so, Ruby got a bit constipated last time I made omelettes for me and OH. She was looking longingly at the shells, and I think I let her have one too many... ph34r. She adores them though, crunches away like a child with a packet of crisps.
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will try a different bone 2night and some egg shells....
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to change the subject slightly...annie wont eat the actual bones - this morning she just walked away from her fresh chicken wing??
Molo got a bit fussy with the "size" of the pieces of rabbit I give him; he prefers it diced, than large pieces ::)
I'm afraid I'm a mean mummy, and once I worked out there was nothing wrong with the actual food, he was offered it for a few minutes and if he didn't eat it, it got taken away ph34r He now eats what I offer him - but still prefers chunks ::)
Bash the ones up for a bit, so they're not too intimidating at first - but I'm sure she'll eat it if its all that's on offer ;)
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you are right ;)
my OH chopped up the chicken wing a bit and smeared it in natural yog and away she went ate the bones in a flash.
so now they are both fine!
just had them clipped and they look lovely!! :D