Slightly Irritated by vet (& OH!)

[JeffD]

If all these kibble type foods are so wonderful why don't they make one for us, My doc is keen to see me eat the right stuff but he has never mentioned a kibble type food 

[Mudmagnets]

I expect RC and Hills have their place for medical reasons and some dogs as we have read do well on it as their daily feed, but I think if any of mine were simply overweight with no other health issues, I would first look at the amounts I am feeding them of their regular food, treats etc. rather than change their food. I would monitor weight and go from there.

[Mari]

I think one of the problems, - and its the same with us hoomans - is that we rather lose track of how many treats and "inbetweens" they/we are actually eating.

So true! And also understanding what is a small and what is a large amount. I watched my dad give the dog a slice of cheese and a meatball. When I told him off because he knows she should not have extras he was genuinely surprised. "I only gave her a small taste". She is tiny, he basically gave her a the equivalent of a big mac for a hooman!   

[woodlander]

Thanks for your all kind replies.  Archie was on Skinners when he came to us and his poo was so "mealy" and soft - on Lily's it's so much better and less of it!
I probably have to do some more training with OH 🙄  But I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall sometimes hey ho!
Onwards and upwards. ...........   

[lucybennett]

I feed Bailey Lily's kitchen and love it. I feed a mix of the wet and dry food and give him the same amount each day (1 tin of wet and a small scoop of dry). It's useful because some of his wet food allowance is also great stuffed in a kong before we leave the house for a bit and some of his dry allowance is ideal for treats- so instead of 'extra' treats, he just has part of his daily food amount in treat form or in a kong.

[desthomas]

Just a thought - I wonder if the vet training actually covers nutrition and what goes into animal feed. It would be interesting to know.

Lesley and Dylan

It does.

Animal nutrition is a very big and detailed subject in veterinary school. Going in depth on covering requirements of different species of animals in different stages of life, preventing and dealing with consequences and treatment of malnutrition, not to mention nutrition as part of treatment of different conditions.

One reason for recommending feeds like Royal Canin, Hills etc is the fact that these brands produce veterinary diets. That means that they have developed food types especially suited to different medical conditions. It also means that they have to properly test and prove their effect and quality. So, regular food for healthy dogs, diets for overweight dogs, special diets for joint pain or renal diseases, the vet can trust that it is good for your dog and can recommend it safely. Of course it is impssible to be familiar with every food on the market, so they will recommend what they knw and trust.

My girl has been eating Royal Canin most of her life, I've been very happy with it. I switched her over to orjien a few years back to try the grain free diet. A heavy protein diet was too rich for her and she could only eat a tiny amunt without gaining weght, she was constantly hungry. So I put her back on RC so she could eat normally. Now she is older and has arthrosis in a knee, she is on mobility food from hills or rc. They have added chondroitin and glucsamine in the kibble so her knee is better and I don't have to fuss with supplements.

Not pretending to be an expert, or prmoting one brand over another But a veterinarian studies for a minimum of 5 years, nutrition is definitely covered by the university. And yes pet food producers will advertise to vets and vet students, so will pharmaceutical companies. But the education gives the vet the better knowledge to judge what claims are real and fake from a seller

Nutrition is a very small part of the syllabus and is delivered by pet food companies.

Yes I feed mine raw, but have no aversion to anyone feeding a grain-free kibble. The issue is that the expensive kibbles like Royal Canin, Eukeneba and Hills are neither grain-free nor contain named meats beyond derivatives. A cursory look at www.allanoutdogfood.co.uk will support this.  I was surprised to see the ingredients of the Hills iD food which is again full of grains and derivatives.

[Mari]

Nutrition is a very small part of the syllabus and is delivered by pet food companies.

Yes I feed mine raw, but have no aversion to anyone feeding a grain-free kibble. The issue is that the expensive kibbles like Royal Canin, Eukeneba and Hills are neither grain-free nor contain named meats beyond derivatives. A cursory look at www.allanoutdogfood.co.uk will support this.  I was surprised to see the ingredients of the Hills iD food which is again full of grains and derivatives.

Not true. I can't speak for all schools obviously, but I'm a vet student so I do have some inside information. And yes that also means I'm potentially biased    but the fact is that at our university nutrition is one of the biggest and most intense curses we have.

It lasts for three semesters and the final exam is known for being extremely difficult due to the professors expectation of in depth knowledge of how nutrients are used in the body. We are talking about everything from consistency of foodstuffs all the way down to micronutrients. We learn abut the different nutritional requirements for different stages in life and development of all the main domestic animals. We learn abut protein requirements, carbohydrates, fats, vitamins, minerals etc. None of the lectures or study materials are delivered by pet food companies.
Not saying we're all experts in nutrition, it really depends on each vet what area they become most knowledgeable in. But we all learn what nutrients are needed for what animal at what time and we all learn exactly how these nutrients are digested, absorbed and utilised in the body Knowing how the ingested ingredients are metabolised in the body is key to understanding proper nutrition in my opinion.

I'm not going to start a grain vs no-grain discussion. Because as far as I can see there hasn't been enough research done to draw a conclusion either way. Also, I haven't finished my nutrition course so I don't want to pretend I'm more knowledgeable than I am. Not to mention 'each to their own' as long as the dogs needs are covered responsibly.

But it is important to know that yes nutrition is part of a veterinarians education from uni, not pet food producers. And even outside the course called nutrition we learn about it. In biochemistry, in physiology in, in pathology, in pharmacology and in internal medicine, it all ties together.

Sorry to sidetrack the discussion. Just wanted to clear that up. I still totally understand how it must feel frustrating for OP to feel like the vet was pushing them to change food. I'd probably be annoyed too. But having spent some time in vet clinics I'm sure it is at least possible that the vet meant well and recommended a brand of food she was familiar with Most vets I know genuinely care about their patients wellbeing 

[Finvarra]

Thank you Mari, that was an informative and reassuring post. It's good to know how,in depth the nutrition side is. You must all have the memories of elephants to,retain it all, lord know,when I,was,comparing foods on the site 'all about dog food', my brain ached  .  I think maybe there are so many manufacturers and foods on the market it can make owners suspicious and confused  when they only want to do the best for their dogs.

Best of luck in your course and exams.

Lesley and Dylan

[Mari]

Thank you Mari, that was an informative and reassuring post. It's good to know how,in depth the nutrition side is. You must all have the memories of elephants to,retain it all, lord know,when I,was,comparing foods on the site 'all about dog food', my brain ached  .  I think maybe there are so many manufacturers and foods on the market it can make owners suspicious and confused  when they only want to do the best for their dogs.

Best of luck in your course and exams.

Lesley and Dylan

It remains to be seen if I can keep it all in my head at once for the exam  Right now I still have a lot to learn both in general and abut specific diets.
But like with any education you forget details after passing your exam. But I think having had to study it for so many hours, days and weeks makes it easier to understand when reading up on things like research or claims made by sellers.
I'm glad it was reassuring! It sounds like there could be a huge difference from university to university. So I guess that we have to trust our vets to be honest about how much they know. I am lucky to have a vet who will admit when she is out of her depths in an area and then refer to someone with experience in that field.
Thanks so much, I'll do my best

[desthomas]

Glad to hear your school does Mari, not all ones are doing this though.  I am surprised by your lack of clarity on grain though, grains have no nutritional value and can cause increase in sugars in some cases (looking at research into glaucoma within humans).  There are of course some grains, such as cooked brown rice, which can be digested.  There is little paid research into this area in canines, although research by behaviourist Stan Rawlinson has been interesting.

Simply put, surely you want as much nutrition within food, grains are filling up space that could be used for other foods?

I do, however, think we can agree that there remains a lot of research to be had and that pastoral care is just as important as correct nutrition?

[Mari]

Actually in pet animals, with obesity being a growing problem, I see the benefit of grains in the food. Adding bulk to the feed and improving feeling of satiety while still keeping the digestible calorie count low. That way you can be sure that they get enough minerals and vitamins without getting too much energy.

Another interesting aspect is the long term effect of a high protein diet on the kidneys. I just don't think there is enough evidence to say that either of the methods are harmful. I hope there will be more research done, hopefully by a neutral party using proper methods.

That said, I could totally be wrong, I am after all just a student and an average dog owner.

It just breaks my heart a little to see how many people are willing to throw around accusations of vets being unqualified. We train as hard as medical students, get the same huge student loans, make a fraction of their income in salary (at least in my country) and people call vets greedy and untrustworthy for selling dogfood. I don't get it  But I guess that's a totally different discussion 

[bizzylizzy]

I think the key word is "your country" Mari, like I mentioned previously, UK and the rest of Europe are two different situations!

[Mari]

I think the key word is "your country" Mari, like I mentioned previously, UK and the rest of Europe are two different situations!

Maybe it is, and if so then that must be very frustrating! But many people say the same about vets in my country, they flat out refuse to believe me when I tell them what salary I can expect to earn. Vet services cost a lot of money, so people naturally assume all vets are loaded. But truth is that healthcare is expensive to provide. Anyway, I obviously have no clue about the state of things in the UK and I've derailed the discussion too much already. (Sorry about that btw). Thanks for explaining! I guess every occupation will have bad eggs, so I we'll just have to find someone we trust with our fur babies when it comes to their health

[Blueberry]

For what it's worth, I don't trust human doctors either, having worked alongside them for 35 years. 

[Mari]

 

Hahaha! Fair enough    I don't trust everyone either, not immediately. But I don't automatically distrust them either. I usually find someone I at least trust to know more than myself about their jobs. Vets, doctors, electricians, car mechanics. There's good and bad in every field.