Author Topic: barf debate  (Read 30002 times)

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Offline Rhona W

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Re: barf debate
« Reply #45 on: June 04, 2006, 11:14:44 PM »

Look I don't want to get into an argument - just expressing my reasons why I feel I can't feed it. I hope I am not offending anyone.

you are actually offending me - you titled this "debate" and yet it seems to be just a thread for you to slag off the BARF diet / natural diet / raw diet, whatever you want to call it.  You should have titled it "reasons not to feed BARF" if that is how you feel...

I must say I am disappointed with the turn this thread took. Kb - you started the thread by saying you were genuinely interested in Barf feeding, as I am and was hoping I could perhaps learn more about it. However, it seems you had really already made up your mind and just wanted to get your own point across.
I must be a terrible mother because I have 4 children and it never crossed my mind to worry about what they might catch from the dogs' poos! I do pick it up straight away (or as soon as I see it) but that is so they don't tred in it and walk it into the house.  :005:

Offline Mich

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Re: barf debate
« Reply #46 on: June 04, 2006, 11:16:33 PM »
There were two groups of 10 dogs - one on commercial food;one on BARF. The prepared meal and the dogs stool was tested in each. 100% of the meals and stools in the commercial group were salmonella free. 80% of the barf meals were contaminated with salmonella and 30% of stool samples had shed salmonella. This is a genuine risk and obviously warrants caution and further investigation. Not only does it cite faeces as being a risk, but the dogs mouth, feeding bowl, the feeding area and presumably chew toys etc must also be considered a risk.


Were the dogs kept isolated during these tests or did they go about their normal daily routine?
  Mich, Bailey and Poppy xxxxx

Penel

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Re: barf debate
« Reply #47 on: June 04, 2006, 11:21:29 PM »
just for everyones info - Campylobacter is found in fecal matter, non-chlorinated water, such as streams, ponds or puddles, food poisoning from food or from a human who has food poison, even a light case.  This disease can also be transmitted to these areas by our common fly, flitting from one host to another.  The bacteria is also found in raw or under cooked meat.....

so be careful if your dog drinks puddles and goes in streams  ph34r  ;) :005:

Offline Magic Star

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Re: barf debate
« Reply #48 on: June 04, 2006, 11:23:06 PM »

I must say I am disappointed with the turn this thread took. Kb - you started the thread by saying you were genuinely interested in Barf feeding, as I am and was hoping I could perhaps learn more about it. However, it seems you had really already made up your mind and just wanted to get your own point across.


TBH I think this thread has been very informative, I have learnt things that I would never have learnt had this thread only been about the positives of raw feeding ;)


Penel

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Re: barf debate
« Reply #49 on: June 04, 2006, 11:28:13 PM »
so no one will be offended if I start a "debate" about feeding a commercial dry food ? 
did you all know that dry food also frequently has salmonella in it, as do raw hide chews and pigs ears ?

Offline Rhona W

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Re: barf debate
« Reply #50 on: June 04, 2006, 11:29:31 PM »
OK now I'm lost! What on earth is campylobacter?  :huh: But more importantly, is it something I can ring in sick with tomorrow as I really need the day off?!

Offline Magic Star

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Re: barf debate
« Reply #51 on: June 04, 2006, 11:31:41 PM »
so no one will be offended if I start a "debate" about feeding a commercial dry food ? 
did you all know that dry food also frequently has salmonella in it, as do raw hide chews and pigs ears ?

Isn't that what you always do anyway? ;)  Not being funny Penel, but theres no need to patrionise people, just because we don't share your views it doesn't mean we don't know anything about the pitfalls of feeding raw or commercial ::)



Penel

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Re: barf debate
« Reply #52 on: June 04, 2006, 11:33:49 PM »
Just trying to make the "debate" more fair Emma that's all... not being funny either...

Offline Mich

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Re: barf debate
« Reply #53 on: June 04, 2006, 11:34:07 PM »
OK now I'm lost! What on earth is campylobacter?  :huh: But more importantly, is it something I can ring in sick with tomorrow as I really need the day off?!

A type of bacterium that can cause illness in humans. ;)
  Mich, Bailey and Poppy xxxxx

Offline kb

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Re: barf debate
« Reply #54 on: June 04, 2006, 11:40:57 PM »
You are now offending me!

I think I have listened very reasonably to the points of views of others and am trying tp express my view point why I think I should not feed it. There was a general consensus at the beginning of this thread that we would try to keep the debate friendly and as far as I am aware i have tried to do that. You and I have already debated this on another thread and you became quite personal and offensive with me on it. I wanted the chance to hear what other people had to say, so that I could expand my knowledge and come to an understanding of what other people think.

In the threads I have read already people tend to become very defensive when criticisms are made. People who feed a BARF diet have expressed the reasons why they do it, most emphatically at times. Indeed it is their right to do so. I did not invite opinions only from those in favour or against. I have had replies questioning my opinions and I am trying to give a reasonable explanation for them.

I am not and have not been personal to you and i do not see the need for you to be so with me. I understand that many of you have good reason to be happy with the diet - I am expressing my concerns about the risk to my dog and my children. Perhaps if i did not have them my views would be different. It may surprise you to know that I care deeply about the welfare of both. I am not sorry that my views offend you - I thought that was what forums like these were for. Cross contamination is a genuine concern and I personally people are foolish to ignore it.

As regards the trial - there were certain prerequisites to the trial - they had to be 1 year old, they had to have been antibiotic free for 2 months, in good general condition (ie no other illnesses), and to have been fed an the required diet exclusively for 2months. I don't know that keeping the dogs in isolation was essential to the trial. The 100% salmonella free result for the commercial food was not something they were expecting. The tests were carried out by a lab specialising in the culturing of foodborne pathogens. The study concludes that some dogs fed this diet shed salmonella in their stools and it should be a factor in deciding whether to feed this diet.

I am not saying that it is the reason why people should not feed the diet - it is the reason I choose not to feed it and I made that decision before I saw this study. My knowledge of cross contamination as a nurse gave me the reason to consider it.

I genuinely am interested in hearing the other side of the coin and in many ways I wish the cross contamination risk wasn't a big deal for me as I might feel otherwise. I simply wanted to know what it is that makes people feed it and why they think it is beneficial. I am not being personal and I am not trying to tell anyone what to do. I am merely expressing an opinion. This should not offend anyone - I am not offended by your decision to feed it and welcome the fact that the whole debate has led me tothink about the content of my dog's diet, even if I will not be feeding raw. I have asked about several things during this thread with a view to doing this. Could I not also say that there are some who appear to have their minds as set against my arguments as they seem to think I am about theirs.

Rhona - noone is casting any doubt over anyone's ability as a mother and I never even suggested that. I feel that there is a risk to my children - I am allowed to feel that. I too am disappointed with the turn this thread has taken!

Offline Elisa

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Re: barf debate
« Reply #55 on: June 04, 2006, 11:42:17 PM »

I must say I am disappointed with the turn this thread took. Kb - you started the thread by saying you were genuinely interested in Barf feeding, as I am and was hoping I could perhaps learn more about it. However, it seems you had really already made up your mind and just wanted to get your own point across.


TBH I think this thread has been very informative, I have learnt things that I would never have learnt had this thread only been about the positives of raw feeding ;)

I have to agree. 

I am always really interested to hear different opinions on BARF.  I don't just always want to hear the positive aspects to it.   :-\ BARF isn't for me or Bailey, just as it isn't for lots of other dogs and their owners.  We have to respect everybody's individual choice for the way they feed their dogs.
Elisa, Bailey & Harvey  xxx

Offline Rhona W

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Re: barf debate
« Reply #56 on: June 04, 2006, 11:43:46 PM »
OK now I'm lost! What on earth is campylobacter?  :huh: But more importantly, is it something I can ring in sick with tomorrow as I really need the day off?!

A type of bacterium that can cause illness in humans. ;)

Well that's my sicknote sorted then!  ;)

But on a more serious note - what are the chances of actually catching any of these things mentioned in this debate? If we were to worry about everything we would never leave the house or own any pet!

Offline Mich

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Re: barf debate
« Reply #57 on: June 04, 2006, 11:46:15 PM »
OK now I'm lost! What on earth is campylobacter?  :huh: But more importantly, is it something I can ring in sick with tomorrow as I really need the day off?!

A type of bacterium that can cause illness in humans. ;)

Well that's my sicknote sorted then!  ;)

But on a more serious note - what are the chances of actually catching any of these things mentioned in this debate? If we were to worry about everything we would never leave the house or own any pet!

Well i had it when i was 18, i didn't have a dog and i was (still am) a veggie, my point being you can catch these things from any number of places.  Of course it is important to be careful, but i don't like Barf or dogs for that matter being seen as the only cause.
  Mich, Bailey and Poppy xxxxx

Offline kb

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Re: barf debate
« Reply #58 on: June 04, 2006, 11:48:59 PM »
Penel - I mention campylobacter as only one of the pathogens found in dog faeces. You are right that this can be picked up in other places - all the morereason to be cautious. Perhaps you would not be laughing if your dogs or someone close to you died from one of these diseases!

Instead of "laughing at"my well founded arguments, or starting to criticise other types of food, you could tell us why we should not be woried about therisk of infection. Incidentally as I already said the fact that the trial I quoted found commercial food to be 100% salmonella free was unexpected. But by allmeans give me the information on dry food - I would welcome it!

Offline bluegirl

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Re: barf debate
« Reply #59 on: June 04, 2006, 11:49:57 PM »
The main sources of toxoplasmosis are from raw meat and can be passed to humans that way. If the dog has eaten something that is infected by toxoplasmosis which has not been eradicated in cooking, it will remain live in the dog faeces - as will salmonella, listeria, e-coli, campylobacter and so on. Because dogs digest their food more quickly, as their digestive tract is shorter they may not necessarily suffer from infection (there is always a chance they will though). These and other parasites are excreted live by the dog and theoretically pose a risk of infection. Now some may argue that the risk is minimal but these are serious infections that in children, the elderly and immunologically compromised (people on chemo and so on) could be life threatening. Dogs are not the cleanest species on earth and pooh can get carried into the house and so on their paws, fur or chidlrens feet and so on. There is no data to say if this is not a real problem, but infections have been reported in dogs.

I know some people don't support this as being a risk - but it is always there and therefore needs to be considered. If cats are a risk, theoretically so are raw fed dogs.

I just know I am going to regret posting this - I have been trying not to cause an argument. By the way I am a nurse, which is maybe why I am so paranoid. Who knows?


I'm also a nurse, qualified in general nursing and psychiatry, but I'm certainly not paranoid about raw feeding, I just don't feel the same way as you.
I have 3 children my youngest was about 4 when we got Penny and I have never had an issue with the kids being sick because of dog poop or my raw feeding methods. I am always very strict with handwashing, poop removing etc. At present I have 10 raw fed dogs.  I believe that for me and my family the benefits of raw feeding far out weigh any of the negatives you have come forward with. I have now been raw feeding for almost 4 yrs.
Karen, Penny, Logan, Phoebe and Bronte.


"Life is a series of dogs".    George Carlin

I was going to take over the world but got distracted by something sparkly.